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Walt Disney World Epcot Discussion Thread

P. 118: Guardians Cosmic Rewind opening May 27th!

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To me, this kind of attraction does not have a place in Epcot. Especially not in World Showcase. World Showcase is not about promoting Disney franchises. It's about promoting countries of the world and representing them in a type of world's fair.

Wait, really? This is what you think? REALLY?!?!?

 

So what you're saying is that Frozen doesn't make sense, even though they have said over and over again that the movie is based on real locations in Norway, but characters like Mulan, Snow White, Mary Poppins, Alice, Aladdin, Jasmine, Donald, Aristocats, Remi, etc, all of which have appeared in World Showcase for YEARS are all "ok" in that area of the park in your mind for some reason?

 

And what are you talking about promoting countries??? Do you *honestly believe* that the countries in the World Showcase are really like the actual places??? I can tell you that Elissa and I have been to ALL of the real World Showcase countries, and while it's a nice representation, it's most certainly a "theme park vision" of those countries. And that's not a bad thing.

 

If you're going to Epcot for a "cultural experience", then you're doing it wrong. The Disney franchises fit in just fine in World Showcase. I mean, hi...it's a DISNEY PARK!!!

 

/end rant

 

I feel bad for the people of Norway (who, by the way, did NOT want this...)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

I'm picturing you going door to door visiting everyone in Norway holding up a picture of the Frozen attraction at Epcot and asking people if this is what they think the next attraction at Epcot should be. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

 

Wow. Some of the things people will actually say... Simply amazing.

 

Robb,

 

I don't know you personally, but I've been a huge fan of yours and this site for awhile now. I have to say, I don't understand the lengths with which you went to call me stupid for having the opinion that I do. It's disappointing that some on this forum can have legitimate opinions and put forth arguments, only to have them shouted down and mocked (excessively) by you, if their views do not align with yours.

 

I didn't write anything outlandish or rude, didn't call Disney morons for taking out Maelstrom for a Frozen ride, or anything of the sort. I personally will love this attraction, I'm sure, whatever it turns out to be. I'm simply disappointed to see it end up in EPCOT, where, IN MY OPINION, it doesn't belong. I'm sorry if that offended you or anyone else on this board.

 

Having said all that, I'll continue enjoying all of your great content. Keep up the great work.

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^ Sorry, I'll try not to have any more opinions about your opinion since obviously that seems to upset people.

I don't understand the lengths with which you went to call me stupid for having the opinion that I do.

Since you inquired about this, let me explain... You wrote this:

World Showcase is not about promoting Disney franchises. It's about promoting countries of the world and representing them in a type of world's fair.

I went back and looked at all your posts. Where were all your posts furious about when Anna & Elsa appeared in Norway last fall and remained there for several months? Why weren't you complaining about Disney promoting their franchises then? All those people didn't come to the Norway pavilion then to see Norway, they came to see Anna & Elsa. Where all your posts upset about that and about all the other Disney characters and references that you can find all over World Showcase and part of the attractions there? Where are those posts?

 

So, from my perspective, you are only upset about this *NOW* with this one announcement. Why? Disney has been promoting their film franchises in World Showcase for YEARS! And this will not even be the first time a Disney character will have appeared in an attraction in World Showcase. So why all of a sudden are you "SHAME ON DISNEY" when they are simply going down the same path Epcot has been on for at least a decade.

 

Like Elissa said a few pages back:

I guess what I don't understand about all of the craziness surrounding this announcement is that it's a theme park. It's not a cultural exchange or an Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. It hasn't been for a long time. You know why? Because people complained and made fun of it!!! So now Epcot has been putting in more fun rides, more rides for children, and more events. Why is this a bad thing? They're making money, the park is more fun for everyone, and it's awesome!

 

This park was punishment for children in the late 80's and early 90's. We went there for French Club field trips and were miserable. Now it's Kristen's favorite park of all the Florida Disney's and she can't wait for a Frozen ride. Sounds like they're going for their target demographic and doing a great job!

 

That's my explanation of why I felt the need to go on a rant. Not just because of YOUR one post, but because of everyone who is making these same broad strokes claims about Epcot.

Edited by robbalvey
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I have to agree with Robb and Elissa, not until they added such rides as Soarin, Mission to Space, Nemo and Test Track was Epcot what it is now. I have talked to numerous people who are pure Disney fans and they think Epcot is the best park.

 

Now before all the redoing and additions, the park was pretty much just for the casual grown up. Not many headliner rides. Just the meandering people movers and the tour around the world.

 

As for this whole Norway redo, I think Epcot does need this. Not all the princesses should be only at MK. Yes it will cause a little bit of chaos around that way, but I am sure Disney knows this and will do its thing.

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I have to agree with Robb and Elissa, not until they added such rides as Soarin, Mission to Space, Nemo and Test Track was Epcot what it is now. I have talked to numerous people who are pure Disney fans and they think Epcot is the best park.

 

Now before all the redoing and additions, the park was pretty much just for the casual grown up. Not many headliner rides. Just the meandering people movers and the tour around the world.

 

As for this whole Norway redo, I think Epcot does need this. Not all the princesses should be only at MK. Yes it will cause a little bit of chaos around that way, but I am sure Disney knows this and will do its thing.

 

I sure hope they do it properly - accounting for the crowds - and not just a budget/time constrained shoe-horn job.

 

And MAYBE - just maybe - it'll prove enough of a boost to attendance/spending to encourage some further investment in World Showcase ATTRACTIONS - which have been overlooked since every pavilion got built, basically. The only mild updates were bringing Donald & pals to the LAMBR, and film updates to China & Canada... LOTS of restaurant upgrades (where the $$$ gets made), continually improved Food & Wine Fest ($$$)... but nothing attraction-wise since... ?

 

Epcot still has a TON of room for expansion, and lots of room in the existing infrastructure for bigger crowds... best case scenario is that Froze-strom spurs crowds and further investment. Can't ever see an E (or even D) ticket being brought forward if this isn't a wild success.

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I am looking forward to this makeover, I loved the movie and this is a great move for the World Showcase, I'm just hoping that not all of the "Norway" theme is removed, for example they could use the theater in the pavilion to show how real locations were used to inspire the movie.

 

When this expansion is a success maybe we'll get that purposed bullet train attraction for the Japan Pavilion...

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What about the announcement has indicated to people that the anything & everything Norway will be completely removed from this just because Maelstrom is turning Frozen? Did I miss something? This seems like people flying off the deep end waaaaay too soon.

 

For one, the two are not at odds with each other. There's a reason this ride isn't being built next door in the China pavilion. Frozen fits into Norway as seamlessly as can be possible in World Showcase. For another, I've always felt there was more 'Norway' in those gift shops and facades in/around the Norway pavilion than in Maelstrom itself. The announcement didn't really indicate any massive change is coming to them. I'm sure they'll change slightly, but they'll probably still resemble their familiar Norwegian selves.

 

There isn't much to go on from the announcement alone as to what everything will end up looking like, but I'm willing to bet that no matter how much Frozen comes in, the pavilion as a whole will still look and feel "Norway" and won't be terrible.

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If this ride is well done, the public won't care at all about it's placement in 5 years.

 

And honestly, I don't see how a permanent frozen land would fit DHS at all. An icy castle inside a big box building somewhere? That would really set me in the mood...

 

MK it would make sense but New Fantasyland was just completed and the only room they really have at that park now is back behind Big Thunder or across the circus near the Auto ride. Behind new Fantasyland would require major changes to the park's tunnel entry and Fireworks shows.

 

But a land already themed to Norway? Yep, that's a pretty good setup for a Frozen Icy Kingdom ride. Maelstrom is one of the 5 worst rides at Disney and that park needs new attractions blood as well. Plus, 2018 Avatar isn't the ONLY thing they'll have to show for the next half decade.

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For myself - wishful thinking -

 

Norway - Frozen

France - Ratatouille

United Kingdom - a new Alice In Wonderland dark ride

Canada - rapids raft ride with indoor film tech involved.

Japan - the Fuji coaster I still think will work.

 

 

Edit to add; My Blue Sky Dream is for Disney to create an Alice In Wonderland ride,

on the scale of Indy Jones in Disneyland! Epic. I mean, a real "down the rabbit hole"

grand adventure. It could be awesome plus! Hoping, in my dreams. And trackless!

Edited by Nrthwnd
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I think the issue regarding Epcot adding Frozen is that there's a desire for the park to live up to the potential it demonstrated on its opening, as a unique, vibrant World's Fair and World Showcase.

 

But...Epcot NEVER lived up to that potential. For whatever reasons (many discussed and debated online, ad nauseum,) Disney the corporate entity never understood Epcot, the potential there, and what they could do with the park. Very quickly, the park became something akin to Tron: a risk-taking high-profile white elephant curio that the company didn't know how to optimize.

 

That lack of certainty and direction revealed itself by the end of the park's first decade, where additions to the trip around the world ceased (and really, that aspect should have been a no-brainer regarding additions,) and the edutainment omnimovers in Future World were already stale, already needing replacement...but, with what? Clearly, Disney didn't have a clue.

 

So we got a couple of thrill rides with muddled themes vaguely centered around science and technology (both of which I like, incidentally,) and a fun, simple, "soar" over land masses, which I guess is something. But, clearly, obviously, Disney and their guests are more comfy with characters, with fantasy. I'm sure every 9 out of 10 exit surveys since 1982 has noted that the public wants more characters, less edutainment, and more rides. So, Disney's been inching them into Epcot for quite a while now.

 

I say go for it. The idealized Epcot is gone. If Epcot as Hong Kong Disneyland with stylized mini-lands based around new and existing IPs breathes new and vibrant life into this admittedly stale park, and moreover, Disney the corporation is more comfortable crafting those experiences, then hooray. The sleeping giant hath awakened.

 

I hope they go all out, take the empty pad next to Mexico, and build Arendelle. Set a precedent and the stage for a slew of these mini-lands throughout the park. It will be like Giant Disney Potpurri Land With Booze.

 

Because seriously. Right now they clearly have no idea what to do with the park, from the INSANE Innoventions paint scheme to the Dead Mall spaces at Wonders of Life and Imagination. Why not just go for it and infuse Disney stuff into that Disney park?

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Apparently all these people thought that the World Showcase pavilions are 100% accurate.

 

I mean, Norway obviously has lots of trolls running around. That's why Maelstrom has trolls in it, right?!?!

 

Not that it excuses this bizarre, intractable behavior amongst the hardcore purist...but there IS a difference between taking mythic components of a country's history and culture to create an experience than dropping what essentially is a modern American Movie Musical in Denmark drag into its place. I personally don't care: Epcot is so far gone they might as well take the leap...but Frozen doesn't celebrate or honor the genuine culture of Norway. If anything, Frozen uses the backdrop of a traditional Scandinavian setting to tell a distinctly modern, and distinctly American tale. It even uses one of America's three unique art forms (musical theatre) to do this.

 

To offer a contrast, if Disney dropped a ride based on Spirited Away into the Japan pavilion, it would be a different scenario, as that movie is distinctly Japanese, exploring both modern and traditional concepts and tenets inherent in Japanese culture. That we as an American audience derive meaning and poignance from our outside look into that distinctly Japanese world doesn't change it's fundamental nature as Japanese. Frozen is distinctly American. That a global audience derives meaning and substance from the piece doesn't change it's fundamental nature as anything but American. I think that's the difference.

 

Did that make sense or did I totally just nerd out?

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I realize i'm a bit late since the whole Frozen/Norway thing happened but I finally got out to one of the bigger shops to find the drink Robb was talking about. Sorry about the quality, my battery had swollen on my iphone a little and pushed on the case so my lens was crappy, I got it fixed a few days after.

IMG_3626.thumb.JPG.f6cf4825416bfdd7612fef08614d7dd9.JPG

It was hidden behind the jerky and didn't exactly have prime placement in the rice-wines

IMG_3631.thumb.JPG.0894405e3860206e36d6fce76463d7f7.JPG

I didn't have a fancy glass like Robb had (or any clean ones) so settled for a mug from the days when I actually liked Everland.

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For myself - wishful thinking -

 

Norway - Frozen

France - Ratatouille

United Kingdom - a new Alice In Wonderland dark ride

Canada - rapids raft ride with indoor film tech involved.

Japan - the Fuji coaster I still think will work.

 

 

Edit to add; My Blue Sky Dream is for Disney to create an Alice In Wonderland ride,

on the scale of Indy Jones in Disneyland! Epic. I mean, a real "down the rabbit hole"

grand adventure. It could be awesome plus! Hoping, in my dreams. And trackless!

 

You know, as much as I'm not a fan of the Frozen thing, it sounds better like that, with all of those rides, or something similar. I think it's just because, to me, the Frozen thing stands out, feels out of place, when it's the only "country" with a movie tie-in attraction. If they all had something like that...well, I'd still rather have seen the original idea for the world showcase work out...but it would certainly be better than doing nothing at all with it.

 

A really crazy Alice in Wonderland ride like that would be pretty amazing, too.

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^Hmm--actually Mexico has a "movie tie in attraction," too: the Gran Fiesta Tour boat ride is based on The Three Caballeros.

 

True, that just seems like it's at least centered around the country itself a little bit more.

 

Personally, I'll miss the Maelstrom; I seem to be one of the rare few that actually liked it; but I did like Frozen, too, so I'll stay optimistic. I just want to see Disney decide what they're doing with the World Showcase in general, that's all.

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Frozen's connection to Norway, as told by Wikipedia:

 

To create the look of Frozen, Giaimo began pre-production research by reading extensively about the entire region of Scandinavia and visiting the Danish-themed city of Solvang near Los Angeles, but eventually zeroed in on Norway in particular because "80 percent" of the visuals that appealed to him were from Norway.[69] Disney eventually sponsored three research field trips.[70] Animators and special effects specialists were dispatched to Jackson Hole, Wyoming to experience walking, running, and falling in deep snow in a variety of types of attire, including long skirts (which both female and male personnel tried on);[32][69][70][71] while lighting and arts teams visited an Ice Hotel in Quebec City, Quebec to study how light reflects and refracts on snow and ice.[54] Finally, Giaimo and several artists traveled to Norway to draw inspiration from its mountains, fjords, architecture, and culture.[70][72] "We had a very short time schedule for this film, so our main focus was really to get the story right but we knew that John Lasseter is keen on truth in the material and creating a believable world, and again that doesn't mean it's a realistic world – but a believable one. It was important to see the scope and scale of Norway, and important for our animators to know what it's like," Del Vecho said.[73] "There is a real feeling of Lawrence of Arabia scope and scale to this," he finished

 

 

Regarding the look and nature of the film's cinematography, Giaimo was greatly influenced by Jack Cardiff's work in Black Narcissus. According to him, it lent a hyper-reality to the film: "Because this is a movie with such scale and we have the Norwegian fjords to draw from, I really wanted to explore the depth. From a design perspective, since I was stressing the horizontal and vertical aspects, and what the fjords provide, it was perfect. We encased the sibling story in scale." Ted D. McCord's work in The Sound of Music was another major influence for Giaimo. It was also Giaimo's idea that Frozen should be filmed in the CinemaScope aspect ratio, which was approved by Lasseter.[75] Giaimo also wanted to ensure that Norway's fjords, architecture and rosemaling folk art, were critical factors in designing the environment of Arendelle. Giaimo, whose background is in traditional animation, said that the art design environment represents a unity of character and environment and that he originally wanted to incorporate saturated colors, which is typically ill-advised in computer animation.[75] For further authenticity, a live reindeer named Sage was brought into the studio for animators to study its movements and mannerisms for the character Sven.[78][79]

 

 

Another important issue Giaimo insisted on addressing was costumes, in that he "knew from the start" it would be a "costume film."[30]:77 To realize that vision, he brought in character designer Jean Gillmore to act as a dedicated "costume designer".[80] While traditional animation simply integrates costume design with character design and treats clothing as merely part of the characters, computer-generated animation regards costume as almost a separate entity with its own properties and behaviors[80]—and Frozen required a level of as-yet untried detail, down to minutia like fabrics, buttons, trim, and stitching.[30]:76 Gillmore explained that her "general approach was to meld the historic silhouettes of 1840 Western Europe (give or take), with the shapes and garment relationships and details of folk costume in early Norway, circa 19th century."[80] This meant using primarily wool fabric with accents of velvet, linen, and silk.[30]:75 During production, Giaimo and Gillmore "ran around" supplying various departments with real-world samples to use as references; they were able to draw upon both the studio's own in-house library of fabric samples as well as the resources of Disney Parks' costume division in Fullerton, California.[80] The film's "look development artists" (the Disney job title for texture artists[81]:58–59) created the digitally painted simulation of the appearance of surfaces, while other departments dealt with movement, rigging and weight, thickness and lighting of textile animation.[80]

 

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^I liked Maelstrom well enough, but, let's face it, it was looking pretty dated (the trolls were cool, though). At least Frozen is set in the same region, if not exactly "Norway."

 

Yeah, I definitely understand their reasoning. I'm not 100% happy about it, but I'll just wait and see what happens with the new ride.

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^agreed. Personally not a huge fan (like apparently everyone on here) of the film, but I feel like by including it into the Norway pavilion they are limiting their expansion of that IP. If that makes any sense.

I guess they could eventually just takeover the rest of Norway, but do think they would do that?

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^agreed. Personally not a huge fan (like apparently everyone on here) of the film, but I feel like by including it into the Norway pavilion they are limiting their expansion of that IP. If that makes any sense.

I guess they could eventually just takeover the rest of Norway, but do think they would do that?

 

Once they take over the ride and create a meet and greet, is there really any Norway left in the pavilion? The restaurant is already a character buffet, and one has to assume that the current giant troll gift shop will be reworked to be Frozen, so what's left, really?

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