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Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

P. 1989: Wicked Twister's permanent closure announced!

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But has that been confirmed by anyone at CP or RMC that the mid-course cannot be a block (it appears to have two different sets of brakes on it)? I am confused why it wouldn't be designed to be a block? Indeed, the theoretical capacity advertised by CP is 1,200 pph and that number wouldn't make sense -- even if those numbers are frequently perfect-case aspirational figures that are rarely (if ever) hit, I think they usually don't list impossible numbers, and anything north of 800-ish pph would indeed be impossible without that mid-course block.

 

Sometimes things are *designed* a certain way but things don't always go according to plan because there are peaks and valleys in the design process. Mostly the latter...

 

No, I got that. I was just confused because it sounded (to me, at least) like some people were saying that it was never designed to be a true block, and that made no sense to me. I think what most are saying is that it is not presently functioning as a block -- but it could later on (unless they blew the design, and I somehow doubt that RMC couldn't figure out the momentum needed to return to the station from the block.)

 

TTD was originally designed to run 6 trains, but it was statistically proven in practice to be more efficient with 5. Things happen, and sometimes not everything goes according to plan. What looks good on paper may not necessarily work in reality.

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^ Same things why Kingda Ka has went down to a max of three trains on one side of the station instead of dual station operations - it was shown to the park that it's actually faster to just use three on one side instead of four on two sides.

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TTD was originally designed to run 6 trains, but it was statistically proven in practice to be more efficient with 5. Things happen, and sometimes not everything goes according to plan. What looks good on paper may not necessarily work in reality.

 

Agreed.

And I suspect we will see 3-train operation with a functioning mid-course block next year, if not on Halloweekends.

This isn't an example where capacity is not materially affected.

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^ Same things why Kingda Ka has went down to a max of three trains on one side of the station instead of dual station operations - it was shown to the park that it's actually faster to just use three on one side instead of four on two sides.

 

Ehhh, it's not actually faster. The ride ran at a much higher capacity with dual station operations and 4 trains. But it's cheaper to run the ride with 3 trains and one station (less employees and less trains running at a time) and it also improves downtime because there are less trains launching every hour.

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^ Same things why Kingda Ka has went down to a max of three trains on one side of the station instead of dual station operations - it was shown to the park that it's actually faster to just use three on one side instead of four on two sides.

 

Ehhh, it's not actually faster. The ride ran at a much higher capacity with dual station operations and 4 trains. But it's cheaper to run the ride with 3 trains and one station (less employees and less trains running at a time) and it also improves downtime because there are less trains launching every hour.

 

Ah. Well that's certainly a lot less of a glamorous reason, lol. My bad!

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^ Same things why Kingda Ka has went down to a max of three trains on one side of the station instead of dual station operations - it was shown to the park that it's actually faster to just use three on one side instead of four on two sides.

 

Ehhh, it's not actually faster. The ride ran at a much higher capacity with dual station operations and 4 trains. But it's cheaper to run the ride with 3 trains and one station (less employees and less trains running at a time) and it also improves downtime because there are less trains launching every hour.

 

Even with the delays related to Zumanjaro?

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At this point, Six Flags regrets ever building Kingda Ka and are just looking to be as cheap as possible with operating it until it either falls down; or they feel the public won't care if they take it down.

 

I have a hard time believing Great Adventure regrets have the tallest coaster in the world and fastest ride in the the U.S. in their park.

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At this point, Six Flags regrets ever building Kingda Ka and are just looking to be as cheap as possible with operating it until it either falls down; or they feel the public won't care if they take it down.

 

I have a hard time believing Great Adventure regrets have the tallest coaster in the world and fastest ride in the the U.S. in their park.

 

They also regret building the number one rated wooden coaster

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At this point, Six Flags regrets ever building Kingda Ka and are just looking to be as cheap as possible with operating it until it either falls down; or they feel the public won't care if they take it down.

 

I have a hard time believing Great Adventure regrets have the tallest coaster in the world and fastest ride in the the U.S. in their park.

 

They also regret building the number one rated wooden coaster

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Now now, before you tear me to bits. Here me out on the logic.

 

Intamin has the reputation of being in the parts business, they are great at charging a lot of money for replacement parts. (I can't divulge too much into that because of confidentiality...but believe me on that when I say CP builds up quite a tab every season).

 

Take Six Flags now and look at their business model. What's their model? Being as cheap as possible and doing what they can to get away with it. The mentality was different in 2005 and 2006. Remember that this wasn't yesterday...it's been 12 years now. Having gone through another bankruptcy and restructure...I doubt they're happy they have Kingda Ka. Top Thrill Dragster is a drain on CP part funds, it runs in the red every year. It remains because of it's popularity and significance it has on the skyline and the allure of Cedar Point. Six Flags doesn't operate the same way Cedar Fair does. Dick Kinzel regretted Dragster even though it's become like it's own cult and we couldn't picture CP without it...you don't think Six Flags regrets it either?

 

Just fun food for thought discussion

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Now now, before you tear me to bits. Here me out on the logic.

 

Intamin has the reputation of being in the parts business, they are great at charging a lot of money for replacement parts. (I can't divulge too much into that because of confidentiality...but believe me on that when I say CP builds up quite a tab every season).

 

Take Six Flags now and look at their business model. What's their model? Being as cheap as possible and doing what they can to get away with it. The mentality was different in 2005 and 2006. Remember that this wasn't yesterday...it's been 12 years now. Having gone through another bankruptcy and restructure...I doubt they're happy they have Kingda Ka. Top Thrill Dragster is a drain on CP part funds, it runs in the red every year. It remains because of it's popularity and significance it has on the skyline and the allure of Cedar Point. Six Flags doesn't operate the same way Cedar Fair does. Dick Kinzel regretted Dragster even though it's become like it's own cult and we couldn't picture CP without it...you don't think Six Flags regrets it either?

 

Just fun food for thought discussion

 

They are not the same ride.

 

1. Six flags has a dual load station(although they dont use it anymore). Its taller, and has an large bunny hop after the tower.

2. Six flags has a drop tower ride that they have to coordinate with before they can launch a train. Best drop ride I have been on btw...

3. I doubt either park regrets having a record breaking coaster that dominates the skyline. Sure it costs them some coin to keep them going, but both coasters keep the turnstiles clicking by quite a bit. Not to mention the fast lane passes sold just because of them. Just about every person I talk to that is planning on going to cedarpoint, brings up how great dragster is.

4. Most(if not all) intamin coasters, seem to require more maintenance and I assume part costs as well. I think that's why most parks have moved on from intamin and are going with other manufacturers. Dont get me wrong, I love the coasters they built, but let's be honest....they are not the most reliable.

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Now now, before you tear me to bits. Here me out on the logic.

 

Intamin has the reputation of being in the parts business, they are great at charging a lot of money for replacement parts. (I can't divulge too much into that because of confidentiality...but believe me on that when I say CP builds up quite a tab every season).

 

Take Six Flags now and look at their business model. What's their model? Being as cheap as possible and doing what they can to get away with it. The mentality was different in 2005 and 2006. Remember that this wasn't yesterday...it's been 12 years now. Having gone through another bankruptcy and restructure...I doubt they're happy they have Kingda Ka. Top Thrill Dragster is a drain on CP part funds, it runs in the red every year. It remains because of it's popularity and significance it has on the skyline and the allure of Cedar Point. Six Flags doesn't operate the same way Cedar Fair does. Dick Kinzel regretted Dragster even though it's become like it's own cult and we couldn't picture CP without it...you don't think Six Flags regrets it either?

 

Just fun food for thought discussion

 

They are not the same ride.

 

1. Six flags has a dual load station(although they dont use it anymore). Its taller, and has an large bunny hop after the tower.

2. Six flags has a drop tower ride that they have to coordinate with before they can launch a train. Best drop ride I have been on btw...

3. I doubt either park regrets having a record breaking coaster that dominates the skyline. Sure it costs them some coin to keep them going, but both coasters keep the turnstiles clicking by quite a bit. Not to mention the fast lane passes sold just because of them. Just about every person I talk to that is planning on going to cedarpoint, brings up how great dragster is.

4. Most(if not all) intamin coasters, seem to require more maintenance and I assume part costs as well. I think that's why most parks have moved on from intamin and are going with other manufacturers. Dont get me wrong, I love the coasters they built, but let's be honest....they are not the most reliable.

 

They push the envelope. A company like B&M builds the same ride over and over. They may change the order of elements but its pretty much the same thing as the previous design and build. If a company like B&M (I use them since this site seems to consider them the staple of reliability) were to start building LSM, LIM and hydraulic launch coasters I bet they would see more down time as well.

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Now now, before you tear me to bits. Here me out on the logic.

 

Intamin has the reputation of being in the parts business, they are great at charging a lot of money for replacement parts. (I can't divulge too much into that because of confidentiality...but believe me on that when I say CP builds up quite a tab every season).

 

Take Six Flags now and look at their business model. What's their model? Being as cheap as possible and doing what they can to get away with it. The mentality was different in 2005 and 2006. Remember that this wasn't yesterday...it's been 12 years now. Having gone through another bankruptcy and restructure...I doubt they're happy they have Kingda Ka. Top Thrill Dragster is a drain on CP part funds, it runs in the red every year. It remains because of it's popularity and significance it has on the skyline and the allure of Cedar Point. Six Flags doesn't operate the same way Cedar Fair does. Dick Kinzel regretted Dragster even though it's become like it's own cult and we couldn't picture CP without it...you don't think Six Flags regrets it either?

 

Just fun food for thought discussion

 

They are not the same ride.

 

1. Six flags has a dual load station(although they dont use it anymore). Its taller, and has an large bunny hop after the tower.

2. Six flags has a drop tower ride that they have to coordinate with before they can launch a train. Best drop ride I have been on btw...

3. I doubt either park regrets having a record breaking coaster that dominates the skyline. Sure it costs them some coin to keep them going, but both coasters keep the turnstiles clicking by quite a bit. Not to mention the fast lane passes sold just because of them. Just about every person I talk to that is planning on going to cedarpoint, brings up how great dragster is.

4. Most(if not all) intamin coasters, seem to require more maintenance and I assume part costs as well. I think that's why most parks have moved on from intamin and are going with other manufacturers. Dont get me wrong, I love the coasters they built, but let's be honest....they are not the most reliable.

 

They push the envelope. A company like B&M builds the same ride over and over. They may change the order of elements but its pretty much the same thing as the previous design and build. If a company like B&M (I use them since this site seems to consider them the staple of reliability) were to start building LSM, LIM and hydraulic launch coasters I bet they would see more down time as well.

 

They do.

Thunderbird at holiday world and hulk at universal studios comes to mind. They dont have any issues with those rides(as far as I know).

I agree that intamin pushes the envelope. They have some great rides. The problem is reliability.

 

The general public LOVES B&M coasters. Not to mention that they are work horses with very little down time, and have great capacity.

If you were a park, what direction would you go? Now mind you, both coasters are going to bring in the crowds.

 

A. Buy a great coaster from intamin that is going to have high maintenance costs and many days of down time.

 

B. Buy a great coaster from B&M that is reliable and not likely to have as much downtime.

 

I just wish that intamin could get the reliability issues under control. They built some great rides.

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(I can't divulge too much into that because of confidentiality...but believe me on that when I say CP builds up quite a tab every season).

 

I love TOP SECRET super-inside info!

I love seeing people post TOP SECRET super-inside info that could lose them their job but makes little difference to the rest of us.

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Does Cedar Point have a fairly liberal rider assistance program policy (I'm not sure what exactly they call it)? I'm not judging because I know not all disabilities are visible, but I have seen so many people coming up through the exit with sheets at so many rides, more than at any other park I've been to. Is that what it is or is it something else? At this point I'm just really curious.

 

Thank you for not judging the rider assistance policy. A lot of disabilities are not visible. I would say their policy is not any more liberal than others. It is basically the same at all the parks with some variance. I am answering your question based on first hand experience.

 

There are different programs based on your needs. For one of the policies you have to go to an attendant and get a ride time. The attendant gives you the wait time posted for the line. Then you come back and you can ride when it is your time. The people who use this pass wait the same amount of time that someone else does they just come up a different way.

 

There is another policy that is a plan a day. This policy gives you a set time that you can ride between rides. This person can ride a ride every 40 minutes. It is usually every 40 minutes depending on the crowd level. It could be higher or lower that day. Yes I do have experience in this matter.

 

There is questioning that you have to go through to get this and even can require documentation to get these passes. Different parks operate it differently.

 

There is always the person getting the pass and up to 3. This is done because a lot our families that have 4 in them. This way they won't get split up.

 

What happens when you see a bunch of people is that these are usually several groups of people together. The ride operators will group them and get them on one train for convenience. I have rarely seen any group bigger than 4 unless there are multiple disabilities in the group.

 

I hope this helps answer your question.

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What happens when you see a bunch of people is that these are usually several groups of people together. The ride operators will group them and get them on one train for convenience. I have rarely seen any group bigger than 4 unless there are multiple disabilities in the group.

This makes so much sense, but I hadn't thought about it before. Since it can take more time to get seated, work it so only one train is delayed and everybody still gets to ride. That's brilliant.

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What happens when you see a bunch of people is that these are usually several groups of people together. The ride operators will group them and get them on one train for convenience. I have rarely seen any group bigger than 4 unless there are multiple disabilities in the group.

This makes so much sense, but I hadn't thought about it before. Since it can take more time to get seated, work it so only one train is delayed and everybody still gets to ride. That's brilliant.

While it can be frustrating when alternate access takes your seat (or someone in your group's), it's nice to be aware that there is actually a lot of thought and effort that the ride operators are putting into how alternate access is handled. That was one of my main focus areas while training crew members at Millennium Force this summer - try to beat the ride's interval even while loading alternate access guests, as well as minimize the number of trains loaded and never load the same row too frequently. It's all been thought of at great lengths haha.

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As far as ADA, as others have said, there are invisible diseases that prevent people from standing in a long 2 hour line, and I think they are very accommodating and fair with the way they handle it. And yes, it's not a skip the line pass, they can't get a time for another ride until the previous one is up; but some might see it as unfair that they can go play games, shop, eat, or go in a shorter line while "waiting in line". That being said I don't think there is a perfect system that will be perfectly fair and perfectly pleases everyone.

 

I like the way Cedar Fair handles ADA way better than Six Flags does as far as ease of use. For the times I've had to use it due to someone else in my party, different Six Flags parks handle it a little differently and at some rides it can be a huge pain for some having to go up the exit to get a time if it's a difficult or long ramp (really? why can't the greeter do it like any other park?) and then go up again when it's your time (take Nitro as an example) and then some Six Flags parks give you a standard length based on estimated crowds (so even if lines are very short at the start of the day you may have to wait 30 / 45 / 60 min before going on your next ride regardless of how long the line is). I do wish Cedar Fair required a Dr's note, though, like Six Flags does, to cut down on abuse.

 

It's nice how at Mystic Timbers and Steel Vengeance they temporarily chain up a row so you guarantee that nobody takes eachothers seats. Because sometimes people don't listen to the groupers and then you have too many people on the platform, people taking your seat, etc.

 

Anyway, in other news, Witches Wheel has already disappeared... (that was quick)

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The general public LOVES B&M coasters.

 

Nah.

 

I've literally heard kids in line say "this one looks JUST like the other one!" It's cause they are.

 

My 15 year old cousins have been to Cedar Point twice. The first time with me, they wanted to ride everything. This year, we passed on Raptor, Mantis, Gatekeeper, and rode Valravn twice at the end of the day because they didn't make us get off the train. All they wanted to ride was SteeVen, TTD, MF, and Maverick. B&M's can be very good coasters. I love the Batmans, Riddlers, Medusa's of old, good up until probably 2005...but give me a break. As a veteran coaster rider, I just don't expect much from them. Yes, from a park perspective they're great! Reliability forever. But I'm not a park owner, so why should I care?

 

Such typical Boring & Mild rides over-trimmed with no forces. Yawn yawn.

Edited by SteVeUrkle
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Eh, what?

 

Raptor is the most intense invert in the country.

 

I guess...

 

It's long winded. Drawn out. Sluggish, meandering. Got a bit of an old school B&M snap on some of the inversions, but I've ridden it plenty, and I'm over it. Nobody in my group wanted to ride it again on the last trip. This might throw you through a loop but I'd much rather ride a Batman. When you got TTD or SteeVe or Mr. Magnum right around the peninsula, why waste your time with Boring & Milds?

 

If the kid cousins said "no", I pretty much agreed.

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