neil009 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I'm not even a roller coaster designer. Good, let's keep it that way. Did I just read that someone wanted a double down on a dive machine? And why couldn't you have a double down on a dive machine? Explain this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP Maverick Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 You can, but why would you want to? A straight drop is very likely more thrilling to most people, especially if that drop is near vertical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil009 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Why does B&M feel the need to waste track on a second vertical dive that's smaller and shallower than the first when something more interesting could go there? Also it requires the MCBR to be on 100% all the time. I can't really think of many things you would put directly after a MCBR besides a drop. I mean, the drop is kind of what gives the coaster it's speed back after a MCBR slows the train down. If this were Intamin, they could put a launch after the MCBR... If the MCBR were not already 130+ft off the ground. I'd assume B&M puts a second almost vertical drop after the MCBR on Dive Machines because you know... the coaster is a DIVE MACHINE... and Vertical Drops are kind of what Dive Machines are all about. Things more interesting than another vertical dive: A rollover into a dive loop, a steep swooping drop with a tight transition at the top, a double down. There's three and I'm not even a roller coaster designer. Most importantly, none of these things would require a full stop at the MCBR. B&M would go a long way towards making these already short rides feel more substantial by not deviding them in half. Imagine a lower MCBR with no stop, a steep drop with lots of floater air, into a series of ground-level switchbacks (with a tunnel or two). Now there's the start of a real second half. I think you misunderstand what midcourse safety brakes are there for. You need to design the ride as if the ride does come to a complete stop, and then allow for some added velocity. In this case, a dive on a dive coaster is a good thing. Your suggestions are fitting for other coaster types. I know how MCBRs work. But on many coasters you barely slow down most of the time, if the brake kicks in at all. That means those rides can have a tighter pacing without this sudden stop right in the middle of the ride every time. Trying to repeat the psychological suspense of the first drop is repetitious and doesn't add anything to the ride. I've ridden dive coasters before, I've always thought this. B&M designs the ride, they can make it anything they want. Many of these maneuvers are likely impossible with dive coaster trains. They have to account for the possible range of speeds the train could be traveling if the MCBR were lower or didn't always bring the ride to a standstill. Pretty sure everything I said would be totally possible with dive coaster trains. And also, accounting for various speeds at the MCBR is what every ride with a MCBR has to do, most of them don't stop completely every time. Look--it's a dive machine. The ride was originally designed to be literally just a vertical drop and a curve into the final brakes. Cedar Point needs the ride to be high capacity so the MCBR had to happen, and really any extra track is just icing on the cake. If you want a lengthy multi looper you shouldn't be looking at B&M dive machines. What's your point? I'm not even talking about how long the ride is, all I'm talking about is whether or not it has to stop at the MCBR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDown Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Wait...why are people hating on someone for suggesting B&M and/or CP could have been a little more creative with the 2nd half of the ride? I also don't understand why anyone who thinks the ride "could have" had a little more to it is all of a sudden complaining? Because that's simply not true. To be honest, I think a less steep drop, allowing a quick tap of the MCBR --instead of a full on Goliath-esque stop-- leading to a floater hill, then guiding into something like an immelman, would have dramatically improved the 2nd half of the ride. From there they could have done all the low speed turns they already have in the ride. Does that make me a complainer? I only wish Cedar Point and or B&M would have avoided the cookie cutter 2nd half meandering like every other B&M dive machine or B&M built in the last 10 years has done. Am I saying therefore since the ride doesn't have this it sucks and I would prefer it be burned to the ground? NO! Yes, it's a B&M Dive Machine. Well lookie that, it HAS it's dive! After that, it can pretty much do whatever it wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Take a deep breath and relax, folks. Nothing to get worked up about here. Getting back to the ride, I think Dive Machines are B&M's best product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoinItForTheFame Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Wait...why are people hating on someone for suggesting B&M and/or CP could have been a little more creative with the 2nd half of the ride? I also don't understand why anyone who thinks the ride "could have" had a little more to it is all of a sudden complaining? Because that's simply not true. To be honest, I think a less steep drop, allowing a quick tap of the MCBR --instead of a full on Goliath-esque stop-- leading to a floater hill, then guiding into something like an immelman, would have dramatically improved the 2nd half of the ride. From there they could have done all the low speed turns they already have in the ride. Does that make me a complainer? I only wish Cedar Point and or B&M would have avoided the cookie cutter 2nd half meandering like every other B&M dive machine or B&M built in the last 10 years has done. Am I saying therefore since the ride doesn't have this it sucks and I would prefer it be burned to the ground? NO! Yes, it's a B&M Dive Machine. Well lookie that, it HAS it's dive! After that, it can pretty much do whatever it wants. I think the point of Dive Machines coming to an almost complete stop on the MCBR is to add to the anticipation of the second drop. Kind of like the slow turn, and holding brake at the top of the main drop add to the anticipation of the first drop. Also, has anyone else on here actually been on a B&M Dive Machine like SheiKra or Griffon?? You still get some decent air/floater time on the second drop. Especially in the back row. ------------------------------------------------ Getting back to the ride, I think Dive Machines are B&M's best product. Agreed!! I am super excited that Cedar Point is building a Dive Machine! Just means our visit this summer is going to be that much more awesome! Edited February 6, 2016 by DoinItForTheFame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroGravity55 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I'm not even a roller coaster designer. Good, let's keep it that way. Did I just read that someone wanted a double down on a dive machine? And why couldn't you have a double down on a dive machine? Explain this to me. Because it's B&M and it wouldn't deliver any airtime whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbatboy Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Also, has anyone else on here actually been on a B&M Dive Machine like SheiKra or Griffon?? You still get some decent air/floater time on the second drop. Especially in the back row. I have been on Griffon and I wasn't overly impressed. Sure it's a decent ride, INCREDIBLY smooth, and the hang time before the first drop is a nice element. However, I'll take the first drop on Apollo's Chariot in the back seat over anything Griffon has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil009 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 You can, but why would you want to? A straight drop is very likely more thrilling to most people, especially if that drop is near vertical. A straight drop that you creep towards slowly, that you can see coming from a mile away? After already getting to do that once, only it was bigger and better the first time? Double downs are great because suddenly you're feeling airtime when you're not expecting to. Surprises are what makes rides fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonni Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Maybe CP should have ordered an exact clone of Oblivion at Alton Towers instead. Then everyone would be happy, right? I don't think I've witnessed so much nit picking and complaining over a coaster addition in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoinItForTheFame Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 ^ Welcome to the Cedar Point thread during the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestreak Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Yea I'm probably going to stay off this thread for a while. I'll come back when the boat comes back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyRCT3 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Maybe CP should have ordered an exact clone of Oblivion at Alton Towers instead. Then everyone would be happy, right? I don't think I've witnessed so much nit picking and complaining over a coaster addition in my life. If it isn't "my pipe-dream Roller Coaster 1", then expect endless b*tching from entitled enthusiasts who have a degree in NoLimits and clearly have the know-how in designing and building a $15 million+ ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP Maverick Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 You can, but why would you want to? A straight drop is very likely more thrilling to most people, especially if that drop is near vertical. A straight drop that you creep towards slowly, that you can see coming from a mile away? After already getting to do that once, only it was bigger and better the first time? Double downs are great because suddenly you're feeling airtime when you're not expecting to. Surprises are what makes rides fun. Yes, because the anticipation is still there. You are thinking of rides from a very narrow perspective. Try making the ride thrilling for as many people as possible. And you already glossed over the design from a stop, allow for velocity statement. A dive coaster will have wildly varying speed approaching the midcourse. As a designer, you want to eliminate/control as many variables as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil009 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) And you already glossed over the design from a stop, allow for velocity statement. A dive coaster will have wildly varying speed approaching the midcourse. As a designer, you want to eliminate/control as many variables as possible. What makes dive coasters different in this regard from every other ride that doesn't completely stop at the MCBR? Maybe CP should have ordered an exact clone of Oblivion at Alton Towers instead. Then everyone would be happy, right? I don't think I've witnessed so much nit picking and complaining over a coaster addition in my life. If it isn't "my pipe-dream Roller Coaster 1", then expect endless b*tching from entitled enthusiasts who have a degree in NoLimits and clearly have the know-how in designing and building a $15 million+ ride. People seem to be taking this rather personally. Does someone here work for B&M or something? Edited February 6, 2016 by neil009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerstlaueringvar Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) And you already glossed over the design from a stop, allow for velocity statement. A dive coaster will have wildly varying speed approaching the midcourse. As a designer, you want to eliminate/control as many variables as possible. What makes dive coasters different in this regard from every other ride that doesn't completely stop at the MCBR? Wow factor. Every single one of my GP friends says wow when they saw it holds you at the edge for a few seconds and drops you. Now after that, you get a second drop that is close to vertical. Pretty sure GP would love it. Edited February 6, 2016 by gerstlaueringvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP Maverick Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Anticipation. The slow approach and dive are designed together. Without that slow approach, you get a generic drop, something that you see on any coaster and not a dive coaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yeti Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 What makes dive coasters different in this regard from every other ride that doesn't completely stop at the MCBR?? Better airtime than you'll find on probably any other B&M coaster (Nitro is the best non-dive B&M coaster I've experienced airtime-wise). The drops on Sheikra are great, even the second one, and Valravn's drops are taller...so essentially that's more great airtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainUnknown Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Once again, Valleyfair would gladly take Valravn, dive after extremely tall MCBR and all, and you can go back to waiting for your boat. Okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoinItForTheFame Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Does someone here work for B&M or something? WAIT... Is this the SDC thread?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOFanatic Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 The most annoying people on the Internet are people that take valid criticisms personally. Who cares if someone doesn't like Valravn? It's not "entitled" to say "this ride would be better had it been a little taller" or "this ride should have had a splashdown", it's just their opinions. Sure, it's a little stupid to judge a ride before it's built, but how many people get away with saying "This ride will be the best dive coaster in the world! CP RULES!" I can't make a single valid criticism about a ride (color, theming, stats, trains, manufacturer, etc.) anymore without the Butthurt Fanboy Patrol telling me I'm entitled for giving my opinion on how a park could have made a ride better. Cause today, if I say something like "I wish CP didn't choose to paint the ride brown," people automatically assume that I think this is the biggest abomination to the theme park industry since Superstar Limo, and that every fan of the ride should be executed on site. Sometimes I laterally think some enthusiast have found a way to enter into a committed relationship with some of these coasters, cause you defend them like they are your lawfully wedded wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbill Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 God this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterkid124 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Once again, Valleyfair would gladly take Valravn, dive after extremely tall MCBR and all, and you can go back to waiting for your boat. Okay? I'll gladly take Valravn at my home park too, considering everyone is b*tching that it's going to suck and the boat is the most kick ass, orgasmic attraction ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithPlus1 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 ^and you b*tching about people posting pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcoaster Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 God this thread... I can't believe how I'm reading pages of people bitching about receiving the world's tallest, fastest Dive Machine. Want to trade? I'll take a B&M Dive anyday at Great Adventure. Easily B&M's second best design behind Inverts IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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