Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

[Wes]

Does anyone know why this ride is following so closely after Gatekeeper? Just curious. The last two coasters were six years apart, before that they were four years apart. Now these two are only three years apart.

I think Gatekeeper was just somewhat of a fluke or a long pause for coasters after Maverick. If you look back at Cedar Point's history, since the 80's they've built new/record breaking coasters every few years. Magnum, Mean Streak, Rapor, Mantis, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister, and Top Thrill Dragster (plus a kiddie coaster in there) were all built in a timeframe of four years max in between (Mantis and Millennium Force).

After Maverick, and acquiring the Paramount parks, they wanted to focus on other parks, and reimagine the image of Cedar Point being more well rounded (not that it wasn't already). So, they took a five year break (2008-12) at Cedar Point, then got right back on track with Gatekeeper.

Two years of pretty minor investments relative to the parks history (excluding the Breakers renovation which was funded from a waterpark sale) and you have another great opportunity to reimagine the Marina gate for what is presumably much more affordable than Gatekeeper.

Anyways, that just my theory. It's not that this was particularly sped up, it's just the period of time between Maverick and Gatekeeper was a sign of change for the company.

 

Or the entire US economy tanked (upper midwest especially hard) and Cedar Fair didn't feel the need to spend on a park that had a ton of coasters already.

[Password121]

Does anyone know why this ride is following so closely after Gatekeeper? Just curious. The last two coasters were six years apart, before that they were four years apart. Now these two are only three years apart.

I think Gatekeeper was just somewhat of a fluke or a long pause for coasters after Maverick. If you look back at Cedar Point's history, since the 80's they've built new/record breaking coasters every few years. Magnum, Mean Streak, Rapor, Mantis, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister, and Top Thrill Dragster (plus a kiddie coaster in there) were all built in a timeframe of four years max in between (Mantis and Millennium Force).

After Maverick, and acquiring the Paramount parks, they wanted to focus on other parks, and reimagine the image of Cedar Point being more well rounded (not that it wasn't already). So, they took a five year break (2008-12) at Cedar Point, then got right back on track with Gatekeeper.

Two years of pretty minor investments relative to the parks history (excluding the Breakers renovation which was funded from a waterpark sale) and you have another great opportunity to reimagine the Marina gate for what is presumably much more affordable than Gatekeeper.

Anyways, that just my theory. It's not that this was particularly sped up, it's just the period of time between Maverick and Gatekeeper was a sign of change for the company.

 

Or the entire US economy tanked (upper midwest especially hard) and Cedar Fair didn't feel the need to spend on a park that had a ton of coasters already.

This is also a valid explanation

To add to this, it's not like they stopped investing in the park. They just focused on other parks as well, including another another upper Midwest park.

[DILinator]

Just to be clear, lest anybody lump me into a category falsely...

 

There is a difference between expecting this all to be a ruse, and allowing for the possibility that it is all a ruse. I certainly would bet on a Dive Machine called Valravn with the specs we've seen to be announced in just over a week. But am I putting all my expectant eggs in that basket? No way! You just never know, and it's not like trickery is unheard of from CF or even CP. I'm really trying to tamp down on my excitement about this, simply because it'll make the disappointment less if it turns out to be something else, unlikely as that may be!

 

Also, regarding the Raptor/Maverick 50/50 claims... That does seem very high to me, as both of those are extremely popular coasters, and I know of hardly anybody personally who dislikes then. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if a fair number of their GP riders, say 20-25% tops, would deem then to be a bit rough for their tastes. Maverick is no doubt an aggressive ride, and there was a fair amount of headbanging, especially before the new restraints. And Raptor is definitely one of the more intense Inverts, ending with that brutal snap as you come into the break run. Don't get be wrong: I love them both, particularly Maverick. But I can see somebody coming off of them, especially a casual coaster rider, and thinking they were a bit rough for their tastes. 50/50 is definitely too high, however, in my opinion!

[FaithPlus1]

It amazes me how a snap at the end of the ride ruins it for some people!

[JonnyRCT3]

When I hear people complain about Raptor...

 

 

These are probably the same people who whine about B&M's not being forcefull enough for them, go figure.

[DonkeysWaffles]

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

[blakelemay23]

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

Raptor is amazing in the front

[KPfreak519]

I think this VR stuff, if true, would be better utilized on a smaller, compact, indoor coaster like Flight of Fear or RNR or something like that. Maybe it will be cool but in the end, if I'm riding a giant 200+ foot Dive Machine on Lake Erie, I think I want to actually be experiencing "real" reality on a ride like that.

 

That said, it's just a crazy concept that, even if the technology has been around for a while now, I never thought we'd see it utilized like this on a large scale so soon.

 

And just to throw my 2 cents in the ring, I always get a laugh out of the "B&M is forceless" nonsense. I mean yeah, there are more intense rides, but it just sounds so ridiculous and nitpicky when people complain like that about these massive B&M coasters and make it sound like they're not even worth riding.

[Coaster Hero]

Maverick's intense so I'm not surprised people sometimes complain about it. Some people simply can't handle the intensity of it, much like Skyrush or I305 so they naturally complain. As for Raptor, the only complaint I've heard is the final jolt into the brakes which some people seem to like. By the way, as for the render take a close look at the element shaping; it's dead accurate. Most people who "leak" info can't quite get the shaping perfect and there are obvious discrepancies. With the recent rendering, I see no flaws.

[coasterbill]

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

 

Alpengeist and Raptor are both incredibly smooth in every seat. People are so damn spoiled, I won't even bring up a really horrible coaster like a Golden Horse SLC, just go ride any Arrow mega looper and then come back and see how rough Alpengeist and Raptor are.

 

I would say something like "If you can't handle Raptor go ride a ridiculously forceless coaster like Gatekeeper" but according to this thread Gatekeeper has painful death vests so I guess go ride Midway Carousel or something (Cedar Downs is probably a little too much for you).

 

And the thing that kills me is in the next breath people will complain that B&M's are forceless but any time a roller coaster does something roller coasters are supposed to do like move your head around a little bit they're too rough. Which is it? lol

 

PS: I love Gatekeeper thanks to it's great first drop and cool elements but it's forceless as hell. I'm not bashing it.

PSS: DonkeysWaffles I'm not directing this at you at all, just the people you seem to be directing the post at that think Alpengeist is rough.

[robbalvey]

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

 

Alpengeist and Raptor are both incredibly smooth in every seat. People are so damn spoiled, I won't even bring up a really horrible coaster like a Golden Horse SLC, just go ride any Arrow mega looper and then come back and see how rough Alpengeist and Raptor are.

 

I would say something like "If you can't handle Raptor go ride a ridiculously forceless coaster like Gatekeeper" but according to this thread Gatekeeper has painful death vests so I guess go ride Midway Carousel or something (Cedar Downs is probably a little too much for you).

[GCI Wooden]

according to this thread Gatekeeper has painful death vests so I guess go ride Midway Carousel or something (Cedar Downs is probably a little too much for you).

 

And the thing that kills me is in the next breath people will complain that B&M's are forceless but any time a roller coaster does something roller coasters are supposed to do like move your head around a little bit they're too rough. Which is it? lol

This post is beautiful.

[B&MIntaminGCI]

People complaining that B&M roller coasters are rough? That just goes to show that no matter how perfect something is (aka B&M smoothness), people will still claim it's rough.

[canadianparkfan]

People complaining that B&M roller coasters are rough? That just goes to show that no matter how perfect something is (aka B&M smoothness), people will still claim it's rough.

It's because of people like that we have the "forceless" b&ms we do today

[DILinator]

It amazes me how a snap at the end of the ride ruins it for some people!

 

And Raptor is definitely one of the more intense Inverts, ending with that brutal snap as you come into the break run. Don't get be wrong: I love them both

 

Yeah... Definitely sounds like the snap ruined it for me... I only "love" it, instead of... Wait, there isn't anything greater than that! Hmm... Guess somebody has some reading comprehension issues...

 

When I hear people complain about Raptor...

 

These are probably the same people who whine about B&M's not being forcefull enough for them, go figure.

 

And just to throw my 2 cents in the ring, I always get a laugh out of the "B&M is forceless" nonsense. I mean yeah, there are more intense rides, but it just sounds so ridiculous and nitpicky when people complain like that about these massive B&M coasters and make it sound like they're not even worth riding.

 

I can't speak for others, but I am in a constant state of at those who complain about B&M's not being forceful. I'm actually one of the bigger B&M defenders there is!

 

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

Raptor is amazing in the front

 

Raptor is definitely the cat's meow in the front! That's definitely the money seat for that ride! The overall intensity of the ride, and especially the jarring snap at the end, definitely get worse as you go towards the back of the train.

 

Alpengeist and Raptor are both incredibly smooth in every seat. People are so damn spoiled, I won't even bring up a really horrible coaster like a Golden Horse SLC, just go ride any Arrow mega looper and then come back and see how rough Alpengeist and Raptor are.

 

I would say something like "If you can't handle Raptor go ride a ridiculously forceless coaster like Gatekeeper" but according to this thread Gatekeeper has painful death vests so I guess go ride Midway Carousel or something (Cedar Downs is probably a little too much for you).

 

No, there is no world in which the end of Raptor could be described as smooth. You may not be bothered by the snap at the end, but that's your personal preference. That part of the coaster IS rough, especially in the back. Period. I've been riding it longer than many posters here have been alive, and with many, many different people, and not a single person who sat in the back with me would describe that small part of the ride as "smooth", even if it didn't bother them much.

 

I'm not even complaining about the coaster as a whole. I would never describe it as a "rough" coaster, like Son of Beast, a Vekoka SLC, or as you mentioned, the horrific old Aarow loopers! It IS an intense coaster, and has a rough transition up into the brake run. That's it. Still a great coaster!

 

This is the thing that gets me... Sometimes people around here act like we should all experience coasters the same way as they do, or we're less-than. That is simply incorrect! So some people prefer more intensity, or even like their coasters a little rough. Good for them! But that doesn't mean those who prefer their coasters smoother, or less intense, are any less of a coaster enthusiast for that preference. It doesn't mean they should be made fun of or belittled. Everybody's different, and will have their own personal preference. And something to remember: us enthusiasts will typically have a higher tolerance for intensity and roughness than non-enthusiasts! This is certainly something that decades of riding coasters with non-enthusiasts has proven to me. When Raptor snaps back into the station like it does at the end, particularly in the back, it will typically be at least slightly jarring to MOST normal people who aren't ready for it. I know how to ride it to minimize that, but most GP won't unless one of us tells them, so that's going to be their last impression of the ride. Most probably won't let it ruin their ride, but certainly some will walk away with a sour impression and a sore neck and - here's the key thing - that makes sense. It doesn't make them wimpy or less tough. That snap doesn't diminish the ride terribly in my eyes, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it ended less awkwardly.

 

Maybe some people around here are "spoiled" (ok, so there's no "maybe" for some people!), but I most certainly am not one of them. I have a very firm grasp of not only the nuance from coaster to coaster, but also person to person, especially comparing the minority enthusiasts, and the majority GP, and take all these things into account when forming opinions, and stating facts. I'm not trying to tick anybody off, but the one-sided nature that conversation was taking, dragging people (like myself) with logical, well-formed perspectives down, was inaccurate, and I felt the need to point this out. Dislike or write me off if you will, but I'm not the one who started mocking people simply because they experienced a coaster differently than me...

[Woodie Warrior]

I don't get the hype for Raptor but in no way is it a rough ride. A little bit of headbanging? Maybe, but nothing like Corkscrew or any other Arrow creation. (And *shocker* you can avoid headbanging by *GASP* leaning your head into the turns!)

 

I'm sure there are people that hate Raptor and Maverick but I don't think it's 50/50. Maybe 90/10.

[coasterdudebob]

All the talk of VR, what about a Virtual Ride on ValRaven? Certainly possible given today's tech.

[madsencarson]

(V)al ®avn = VR

[redfoot12]

I've ridden Alpengeist (which is assumably as rough as Raptor) and it's not as bad in the front. Maybe it's the same for Raptor?

As someone who's not a fan of Alpengeist and has no qualms about skipping it, Raptor is no where near Alpie rough and I re-rode it with glee.

Edit:

I used to love Alpengeist. It's been a few years though. Maybe I need to give it another shot.

Edited August 11, 2015 by redfoot12

[nannerdw]

It's an anagram. "Naval VR"

They're planning to enclose part of the existing marina with a Triotech 4D shooting dark boat ride, in which you square off against your friends (US Navy vs Royal Canadian Navy) in an epic battle for ultimate conquest over Lake Eerie!

[Coaster Hero]

Honestly, if I305, Maverick, and the Giavanola hypers didn't exist, this whole discussion of B&M's being forceless wouldn't exist. Since we've been spoiled by those coasters which focus on sustained positive g's, we expect every coaster to fit the criteria. Well guess what? Not every coaster is focused on that. So if you're going to complain about hundreds of coasters being forceless, I suggest you ride one of the 4 aforementioned coasters. If not, then please don't complain about forceless coasters, it's getting really annoying. I'm sure the max 4 g's on most B&M coasters qualifies as "force".

[Angle O. Descent]

My list of roughest B&M's:

 

- Riddler's Revenge

- Kumba

- Batman the Ride (especially SFMM)

- Alpengeist

- Raptor

 

Some people see a reason to dislike B&M. I see some kick-ass, revolutionary coasters that have been operating for 20+ years and have earned the right to be a little rough

[DILinator]

Honestly, if I305, Maverick, and the Giavanola hypers didn't exist, this whole discussion of B&M's being forceless wouldn't exist. Since we've been spoiled by those coasters which focus on sustained positive g's, we expect every coaster to fit the criteria. Well guess what? Not every coaster is focused on that. So if you're going to complain about hundreds of coasters being forceless, I suggest you ride one of the 4 aforementioned coasters. If not, then please don't complain about forceless coasters, it's getting really annoying. I'm sure the max 4 g's on most B&M coasters qualifies as "force".

 

 

This point drives at an underlying issue that annoys me as well. When we are here online, talking about non-kiddie coasters, nobody should even be invoking the term "forceless". We are talking about roller coasters, which by their very nature exert forces on every single rider, every single time! Granted, not all "force" is created equal: some forces are stronger than others, and different forces, exert themselves on the rider in different ways. One of the wonderful things about roller coasters is all the variety of forces one can experience on the same coaster, but do so safely!

 

Now, not all people are created equal, and therefore forces can also affect people in different ways, or not at all. It's simply intrinsic nature. That's why two riders, even from the same family (with many similar genes) can sit next to each other on the same coaster, and come away with different experiences. It's happened to me many times, as I'm sure it's happened to you all as well. Does that mean a coaster's "force" is there for the one rider, and not for the other? Of course not! The difference has to do with the person, not the coaster. Because unless you're riding Wilderness Run, or something like it, you're experiencing forces on a roller coaster. And like Coaster Hero mentioned, even B&M coasters max out with some pretty strong forces!

[Devins3]

^^^ So what you are saying is that if coasters that are more forceful then the B&M coasters didn't exist then we would not complain about less forceful B&Ms? Well yea duh, that's like saying if all we had was McDonalds beef and there wasn't prime rib than we would consider McDonalds meat to be gourmet. I think the complaints more come from older B&M style of rides compared to their recent counterparts. I don't think that anybody would describe Raptor, Batman, or Kumba to be forcless. I think that the term forcless is not the best adjective , predictable would be a better word for it. You could have watched the POV of Gatekeeper and pretty much tell what it was going to ride like. I watched the POV for WIcked Cyclone a hundred times and the first time I rode I was very surprised by all of the forces!

 

That said I have not ridden Fury yet and reports are that B&M is starting to do some good things. I can't wait to see what this new coaster turns out like. I have only ever ridden Griffon once and didn't much enjoy it but I wasn't in the best of moods that day so I am going into this new ride open minded! I am a bit disappointed in the ride because I think that a really good wooden coaster would be a better fit for this parks current line up but I'm sure the new Cedar Point ride will be fantastic.

[baileybrucem]

When I hear people complain about Raptor...

 

 

These are probably the same people who whine about B&M's not being forcefull enough for them, go figure.

 

This is beautiful.