Valleyfair (VF) Discussion Thread

[AmyUD06]

17 minutes ago, garyman6 said:

Also, Adventureland in Iowa just announced another new family coaster and log flume.  Valleyfair has to have an answer for this.  Hopefully tomorrows announcement will be good news for Valleyfair.

As I distinctly recall saying several times over the past few years, no they don't.  Parks that are a four hour drive from each other are not direct competitors.  Also, its not in Cedar Fairs wheelhouse to "directly answer" competitors moves, even if they are competitors.  Which they aren't (at least any more than VF competes with Universal Orlando).

[coasterbill]

Yeah, Valleyfair will “answer” this the same way they’ve “answered” every other new addition by Adventureland in the last decade.

[boldikus]

2 hours ago, garyman6 said:

Valleyfair has to have an answer for this. 

[CaptainUnknown]

I half want the park to add one of those SBF spinners just so they can say, "Hey, look: we built a coaster. You can get off our backs now for the next 20 years."

[budtbum]

I was at Valleyfair this afternoon, and the Monster Trucks are going into the old Dino area that used to be the old Antique Auto area. Most of the trees are still there- even the dead Ash trees are still up. They look to be roughly following the same path as has always been there. 

But I disagree that parks a few hours away are not in competition. 

Look at Valleyfair's website- what do they advertise as one of the top four links? Places to stay- Hotels. 

Who remembers the Valleyfair campground that was barely advertised? Did they just throw away that business, or outgrow it to hotels only? (before you laugh, keep in mind Brambilas is across the street)

Parks a few hours away may not be in "direct" competition- meaning the people who show up for the day. But they are in competition with the crowd willing to stay overnight. A drive and a nights hotel room is within reason when you figure in ticket prices etc. Sure VF might be old hat to the locals, but if you live in say Rochester?  (It is 25% the population size of the enitre Twin Cities.)

Anyplace within 250 miles is realistically in play. Not to the same degree- school trips in the spring aren't going to make the long drive. But the once a year weekend family trip that includes a day at VF might. 

That's what Valleyfair should stay on top of. Being the bigger better place that's worth making at least a few hours trip for. 

[AmyUD06]

21 minutes ago, budtbum said:

I was at Valleyfair this afternoon, and the Monster Trucks are going into the old Dino area that used to be the old Antique Auto area. Most of the trees are still there- even the dead Ash trees are still up. They look to be roughly following the same path as has always been there. 

But I disagree that parks a few hours away are not in competition. 

Look at Valleyfair's website- what do they advertise as one of the top four links? Places to stay- Hotels. 

Who remembers the Valleyfair campground that was barely advertised? Did they just throw away that business, or outgrow it to hotels only? (before you laugh, keep in mind Brambilas is across the street)

Parks a few hours away may not be in "direct" competition- meaning the people who show up for the day. But they are in competition with the crowd willing to stay overnight. A drive and a nights hotel room is within reason when you figure in ticket prices etc. Sure VF might be old hat to the locals, but if you live in say Rochester?  (It is 25% the population size of the enitre Twin Cities.)

Anyplace within 250 miles is realistically in play. Not to the same degree- school trips in the spring aren't going to make the long drive. But the once a year weekend family trip that includes a day at VF might. 

That's what Valleyfair should stay on top of. Being the bigger better place that's worth making at least a few hours trip for. 

You know that every CF website has Places to Stay in the top menu, right?  It's just their design theme.

I'm not discounting that yes, some people cross shop parks that are long distances away.  I'm one of them - I do several 1500 mile + road trips a year.  But I'm also an enthusiast with a dedicated interest in the hobby.  Every single one of my friends refuses to go on trips with me for parks longer than 4 hours, and there's only one that will do more than 2. 

The general public is not taking long trips more than once or twice a year, and in those cases it's to see something new.  No one is thinking about driving 4 hours to VF and then says "nah, you know what, let's just go to our local park since VF haven't added a coaster in 10+ years."

School trips are going whatever park gives them the better price point, that's a simple fact.

If you want to think that VF and Adventureland are competing, fine, you're entitled to your opinion.  You also need to say then that Dorney Park and SF Great Escape are competing (or for a more extreme example, Busch Gardens Williamsburg and SF Fiesta Texas).  They're not competing any more than any other park in the country is for tourism dollars.

And again, it's not CF's standard procedure to make major investment at parks that are doing just fine financially regardless of competition.  Think of Dorney Park again.  This park is located in what might be the amusement park mecca of the US - Within a 2-3 hour drive, you have the following:  Hershey, Knoebels, Dutch Wonderland, Sesame Place, SF Great Adventure, Casino Pier, Keansburg Amusement Park, Clementon Park, Playland's Castaway Cove, Morey's, Coney Island, and even American Dream.   All are without a doubt "competition" for Dorney Park.  Yes, while many of those places are shitholes, and some rarely see major improvement projects, Hershey and SFGAdv get new, major rides every few years.  Dorney Park hasn't gotten a coaster in 10, and it was a hand-me-down - their last original coaster investment was 14 years ago (and I'm not saying they need one now).  But yet, Dorney Park continues to exist, and make money for CF.  Similarly, SF America is located within an hour or so of both Kings Dominion and Busch Gardens Williamsburg, and you see how frequently they get major investment  Why?

Because it doesn't always matter what competitors do if the park is meeting the goals of the operators.  Clearly, VF is doing this, or they would be getting more investment (or shut down).

[budtbum]

I get what your saying, and largely agree- especially the statement "it's not CF's standard procedure to make major investment at parks that are doing just fine financially regardless of competition."

I also understand that the websites have a standard design theme too that includes places to stay. 

But I will say that Minnesota and Valleyfair is a different market as well.

For example the "amusement park mecca" is supported because it's also close to major population centers. Washington D.C, New York etc. Even Philadelphia alone is nearly 150% the size of the entire Twin Cities metro area that VF serves. 

Valleyfair is a different smaller market, in a much larger geographical area. Maybe they don't have to make the investment. 

I know many are willing to drive some extra here. Why? Because we have to... Otherwise it's a 400 mile drive to Six Flags. 

I know it sounds weird to people in Chicago, or bigger cities- States like Texas with larger meto areas that have more major parks close by to choose from. But if you're in Minnesota, and you don't easily have the ability to fly or drive across the country (which many people don't), then VF looks a bit different. So do the other smaller parks nipping at their heals (often with the water parks).  More so, if you're in an outer area like Rochester. 

VF is big in comparison to the 250 mile radius now, but as the smaller parks grow, and VF doesn't... Just because it's a successful corporation doesn't mean they don't miss the boat too, so to speak. I think quite often they are doing exactly what you say- skip the investment and take a steady profit- even if it's a smaller one.

Some of this is speculation. It's not like CF has the home address of all their guests to prove it. Just a name and a credit card number. So it's difficult to know for sure how far their guests are really coming from. 

[Donomike05]

Not looking good…ever park is announcing their plans and nothing from Valleyfair has been mentioned.

[AmyUD06]

1 hour ago, Donomike05 said:

Not looking good…ever park is announcing their plans and nothing from Valleyfair has been mentioned.

By "every park" you mean four, sorry, five of them?

[CaptainUnknown]

Yeah, Cedar Fair rarely makes all their announcements on the same day. The park's probably just waiting another week or so to announce their new fleet of trash cans.

[boldikus]

Sounds like Donomike05 dono that this park never adds anything.

[jazma]

^^ I don’t think that’s true anymore. About 2019, they started making announcements as part of a Cedar Fair press release all on the same day. That release came out yesterday.  
 

Knott’s used to notoriously wait until well last Labor Day, sometimes even into Haunt, to announce their next year plans, but they announced yesterday.  
 

It appears nothing of any consequence for Valleyfair! Next year. 

[Sephiroth]

The advantage VF has is that the majority (vast majority) of the customer base is happy with how the park is and generally isn't bothered by a lack of a new roller coaster or other major additions year after year. The local community of the twin cities metro and surrounding area still regularly plan trips the park, just like they plan trips to Wisconsin Dells, MOA, State Fair, BWCA, Lake Superior, and their cabin, none of which change much year-over-year (the biggest exception to this being the Nick-U conversion at MOA several years ago, a one-time change for the most part).

 

I've also noticed if people I know in the area want to see big, flashy attractions, most of them make a trip to Disney or Seaworld, and the small percentage of enthusiasts go to Cedar Point, Six Flags, or whatnot. Remember MN is in roughly the middle of the North American continent, so being able to go to the ocean while stopping by Disney in the same trip is appealing.

 

As long as the locals keep buying tickets and season passes, the park is successful and doesn't need the draw of a major new roller coaster to stay financially stable. The property is pretty much in a wetland and the nearby airport caps any future ride at the same height as Power Tower, meaning major construction projects can be challenging.

 

I want a big addition (roller coaster) just like the rest of you, but we are a small minority and this isn't politics so I don't think we'll get our way anytime soon...

[garyman6]

I was at Valleyfair last Thursday (announcement day).  Monster Jam was set to start the next day.  The park was slammed.  And as I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that Cedar Fair must see this as a reason to not invest in the park. 

As long as they are having huge crowds there is no reason.  This is a fundamental change in their thinking.  I know for a fact that their previous policy was that if a park is drawing large crowds then it's time to invest for two reasons. 

First, to keep building momentum.  Second, their return on investment will come quicker.

Maybe that' not the case anymore.  At least with Valleyfair

Cedar Point on the other hand has huge crowds as well but they keep adding and adding and adding.  So what gives?  Can they get to a point where they start losing the crowds because everyone perceives that they will be slammed and they don't want to wait in lines all day?  

It just seems to make more sense to me to build all your parks up to continue to draw in larger crowds but Cedar Fair seems content to keep it as is.

But, in my continuing, sometimes obnoxious optimistic thinking, I have a prediction.  In 2024, Valleyfair will build a new coaster in the Dinos plot of land or another location. (I have a few ides)  If you haven't already, check out ScreamScape from last week.  Valleyfair dropped a teaser on Tic Tok saying something about a new attraction coming in 202_.  It cuts off and you can't hear what year.  He was in the Dinos area.  Strangely, the end of the clip is about cats.  Maybe it will be themed to cats?  Check it out.  

Naysayer and mockers begin 

 

[AmyUD06]

33 minutes ago, garyman6 said:

I was at Valleyfair last Thursday (announcement day).  Monster Jam was set to start the next day.  The park was slammed.  And as I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that Cedar Fair must see this as a reason to not invest in the park. 

As long as they are having huge crowds there is no reason.  This is a fundamental change in their thinking.  I know for a fact that their previous policy was that if a park is drawing large crowds then it's time to invest for two reasons.

Care to enlighten us when that was the policy?  The 1980s before they bought Dorney and the Paramount parks?

As long as I've been following parks, and the history that I've studied since, that is absolutely not their "policy."  The lack of major additions to the smaller parks more than once a decade makes that clear.

And yes, "if they're still drawing crowds there's no reason to do major ride additions" at these smaller parks is what I've been saying all along.  You think it's a change, but in the past 25-30 years, it has absolutely been par for the course.

36 minutes ago, garyman6 said:

Cedar Point on the other hand has huge crowds as well but they keep adding and adding and adding.  So what gives?  Can they get to a point where they start losing the crowds because everyone perceives that they will be slammed and they don't want to wait in lines all day? 

 It just seems to make more sense to me to build all your parks up to continue to draw in larger crowds but Cedar Fair seems content to keep it as is.

Cedar Point, and to a lesser extent Kings Island, are true "destination" parks.  People plan trips solely around going to Cedar Point, much like they do Disney or Universal parks.  This is why they need continual major investment; there isn't enough local population to support the park, so they need to keep drawing in the "destination" crowd.  Not everyone is me who's willing to do a blitz 8-hour-each-way roadtip to visit CP on a long weekend regardless of what they add.

38 minutes ago, garyman6 said:

But, in my continuing, sometimes obnoxious optimistic thinking, I have a prediction.  In 2024, Valleyfair will build a new coaster in the Dinos plot of land or another location. (I have a few ides)  If you haven't already, check out ScreamScape from last week.  Valleyfair dropped a teaser on Tic Tok saying something about a new attraction coming in 202_.  It cuts off and you can't hear what year.  He was in the Dinos area.  Strangely, the end of the clip is about cats.  Maybe it will be themed to cats?  Check it out.  

Naysayer and mockers begin 

Keep the dream alive, kid, keep the dream alive.

[budtbum]

They can play revenue games;

If there is a larger crowd, there are more Fast Lane sales. At what point do people pay, or walk away and how many?

I happened to be driving by Valleyfair Saturday morning at about 10:30am. They had at least a half mile long line- stop and go line of cars- to get into the park. I don't hardly ever go by on Saturdays, so I'm not familiar on the line size they normally get then in the mornings. But I haven't seen lines like that since the Haunt last year.  

Could be a draw from the monster trucks opening weekend, and/or because it's getting into the last few weeks of warm weather on a Saturday. I don't really know.

But I do know several people/families that are starting to do things like go to Lost Island. Their water park is at least as good as Valleyfair's and in some ways better. Now that they are adding dry rides- a couple decent coasters and such, it's becoming even more of a park. 

People can get up at 7, get there and into the park by 11, easy. Spend the day, and be back home by 10pm. Yes it's a few hours in the car, but less waiting time in the park.  (it's a relatively pleasant drive too) And here's the kicker- Since Valleyfair is the only major park in the metro area, many kids are there in the spring on a school trip already. Go again with the family?

That's for the crowd who's more budget conscious. The ones with more money are wondering if they want to spend it for a Fast Lane at Valleyfair or go to a larger park.

Valleyfair is like, "we wore out the Looping Starship and replaced it with Delirious..."  

I think the Monster Trucks is a great event- As long as they are getting enough people and Fast Lane sales, and a possible $40 a head for the Trucks, they don't have to make major investments like they did in the early 2000's. But at a lack of investment eventually builds up their own competition too. 

[budtbum]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:42 AM, Sephiroth said:

The property is pretty much in a wetland and the nearby airport caps any future ride at the same height as Power Tower, meaning major construction projects can be challenging.

Actually with the completion of Flying Cloud airport expansion, Valleyfair is now clear to build up to 310' anywhere in the park. 320' in some areas.

Renegade is over a concrete platform, and they can drive footings like they did for Power Tower, which is extra expense. They just shouldn't go cheap like with Excalibur, as that seems to have caused settling issues. There isn't much else that is physically preventing building.  They have even been cleared to build dikes when they were talking water park expansion. 

I think they may get more bang with a dry ride given the longer operating time per year. But the MOA water park design is known now too, so they could do some things different at VF.  They would have to weigh what area has the longest lines and most customers.  

[Sephiroth]

If I was an exec at Cedar Fair, I'd look at the data behind Valleyfair and take away the following points.

• Valleyfair has been operating at an overall profit for the last 15 years without the addition of a new roller coaster.
• Lost Island may be something new and flashy, but Wisconsin Dells is basically the same thing (actually better than Lost Island at the moment) at a similar distance, has been operating for a timespan of 30 (Mt Olympus) to 40 (Noah's Ark) years, and has not hurt Valleyfair's ability to draw crowds and generate profit.
• Valleyfair and Camp Snoopy/Nick-U have coexisted for... 30 years. Both parks are financially successful despite being 12-15 miles from each other.
• Valleyfair's major attractions dwarf the height of any of their competitor's major attractions by 100 ft or more (Wild Thing, Power Tower, Northern Lights), cementing itself as the big fish of the region according to public perception.

Based on those points, the trend I'd be looking at is that making small, quality investments in Valleyfair is a verifiable, proven, data-driven, and reliable path to profit. Cedar Fair has the ability to not make a major investment (roller coaster) until they just one day feel the urge to do so, on a whim if so desired. It could be 2024, it could be never.

[garyman6]

23 hours ago, AmyUD06 said:

Care to enlighten us when that was the policy?  The 1980s before they bought Dorney and the Paramount parks?

As long as I've been following parks, and the history that I've studied since, that is absolutely not their "policy."  The lack of major additions to the smaller parks more than once a decade makes that clear.

And yes, "if they're still drawing crowds there's no reason to do major ride additions" at these smaller parks is what I've been saying all along.  You think it's a change, but in the past 25-30 years, it has absolutely been par for the course.

About 7 or 8 years ago, through correspondence directly with Cedar Fair about Valleyfair, I was invited to come to VF by the then GM Dave Frazier.  I can't tell you how I got the attention of Cedar Fair as I'm not sure.  I just wrote them with ideas I had about the park.  Cedar Fair then sent it on to Mr. Frazier and he invited me out.  It was during Haunt and it was the first time I had seen the Huge turnout that Haunt had.  

Anyway, I ended up going out to the park several times and each time I did Mr. Frazier would take me out for a walk around their property.  We went to areas not accessible to any visitor.  I learned a lot of interesting things during those walks.  Obviously he couldn't divulge any specifics but I could tell he dropping hints as to what was being talked about in regards to Valleyfair.

But one thing he did say was what I said above.  Cedar Fair execs were waiting until crowds improved before making any major investments.  By major I mean a new coaster.  If you recall, around this time and prior to covid.  Valleyfair was making alot of park improvements, infrastructure improvements and some new flat rides.  What I was told is that they were preparing for larger crowds.  I'll give you two examples.  Picnic Point was designed to feed 3000 people within 1 Hr.  That was double what they could do before they revamped Picnic Point.  Why would they need that much capacity?  North Star,  this ride is the only star flyer in the Cedar Fair system.  Star Flyers have two configurations, a 24 passenger and a 36 passenger.  Surely the 24 passenger would have been cheaper but they went with the 36 passenger model.  Again, why? 

They were preparing the park to accommodate larger crowds!  

That's why I say that, at least at Valleyfair, maybe their policy has changed.  Remember, it was around that time that Cedar Fair announced that three parks were going to be focused on for significant investment as Cedar Fair saw their potential to draw larger crowds.  The three parks were Carowinds, California's Great America and Valleyfair.  Carowinds was the first and you can see what has happened there.  CGA was getting and rumored to get large investments but Valleyfair got left out.  

So, here is the question, was Valleyfair left out or was it delayed?

[samsam1029]

When I went to VF last week one thing my wife and I took note of was just how awkward the spot where Looping Starship use to be. The ‘decor’ was just a grass field with some planted trees and an old wooden wagon.

Sorry, this might be a dumb question, but I was curious if that lot would be large enough for CGA’s RailBlazer?

[jazma]

^^ I don't recall that at all.  I recall at one time they were trying to sell off WoF and VF, but there were no takers.  Carowinds is completely different.  The investment, as I recall, was between KD and CAR and the city (Charlotte) gave some sort of tax incentives for CAR so that sealed the deal.  That is why all the investment in Carowinds, so you can't really compare the two.  Also, Charlotte as a city and surrounding area, such as Fort Mill, SC, have exploded in development in recent years, so I am sure that also helped.  VF, WOF and MiA are the smaller tier properties, in attendance.  Also, VF is lacking accommodations.  It makes sense to invest in properties that have other growth vehicles, such as accommodations and other out of park revenue, or more year round ops.  The fact that there is no Winterfest at WOF anymore, nor VF, says a lot I think.  (And don't get me started on MiA, which doesn't even have a Haunt event.). Don't get me wrong, I love VF, but I think they need more ways to get revenue from guests, and a new ride is not going to be it.  Also, for the record, they have long said they invest about 9% of revenue back in the park.  If the park makes a lot of money, they have more 9% to invest in new attractions quicker, than a smaller park with a shorter season, and little ancillary revenue outlets.  

[CaptainUnknown]

20 hours ago, garyman6 said:

I was invited to come to VF by the then GM Dave Frazier...Obviously he couldn't divulge any specifics but I could tell he dropping hints as to what was being talked about in regards to Valleyfair...That's why I say that, at least at Valleyfair, maybe their policy has changed.  Remember, it was around that time that Cedar Fair announced that three parks were going to be focused on for significant investment as Cedar Fair saw their potential to draw larger crowds.  The three parks were Carowinds, California's Great America and Valleyfair. 

Dave was at least 2 GMs and a pandemic ago now, so odds are that whatever conspiracy theory board you have from your conversations is no longer valid. Hell, CGA was primed for a big expansion and instead is on its way to the gallows.

 

8 hours ago, samsam1029 said:

When I went to VF last week one thing my wife and I took note of was just how awkward the spot where Looping Starship use to be. The ‘decor’ was just a grass field with some planted trees and an old wooden wagon.

Sorry, this might be a dumb question, but I was curious if that lot would be large enough for CGA’s RailBlazer?

Even if there was enough room there, (which I doubt) why would the park sacrifice prime waterpark expansion land for a coaster when there are plenty of other areas in the park that could hold it?

[garyman6]

I found this again from 9 years ago.  True, it was a long time ago but it still was the thinking of Cedar Fair at the time.  Just because park GM's come and go and CEO's come and go doesn't mean that long term plans necessarily come and go as well.  Cedar Fair has an entire board making these decisions.  They followed through with Carowinds and were beginning to with CGA but the covid hit and all their plans got delayed for at least 2 years but more likely 3 or 4 due to having to recover financially from the pandemic.  Then the opportunity to recover $300+ million with the sale to CGA was to lucrative to pass up.  Maybe the plans for Valleyfair just got shelved?  I mean, to go 5 years without any new investments in any kind of ride is actually very unusual even for Valleyfair.  Delirious was the last new investment in 2018.  It would have been normal for an off year in 2019 to save for capital expenses.  Then 2020 hit and everything stopped.  One other thing to keep in mind, Brian Witherow is still Cedar Fair's CFO!

One last thing, GM's have very little say about what investments actually happen in their parks.  They are just there to run it and operate it as efficiently as possible.

Anyway, for those asking, 

The following is a summary from NewsPlusNotes.

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 2013

Heard On... Cedar Fair UBS Media Presentation

Cedar Fair's CFO, Brian Witherow presented at the recent UBS Global Media & Communications Conference, and shared some interesting tidbits about the company - as always I like to share some of the fun stuff I noticed during the presentation.  A full broadcast of the event can be access via this link.

• After selling two California water parks, they believe they are now down to their "core" properties.  To me that could mean that Wildwater Kingdom, formerly part of Geauga Lake, might not be sold after all.

• The chain's big four parks, Knott's, Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, and Kings Island make up two thirds of the company's revenue, and almost 70% of their EBITDA.  That really shows just how much these properties contribute to the bottom line, and why we see large investments at them.

• The chain sees three parks as having room for significant growth, Carowinds, Valleyfair, and California's Great America.  I'm quite surprised to see Valleyfair on that list!  They will expand heavily at those parks, with the focus on Carowinds first - as has been previously announced.

• In order to increase sponsorship revenue the in-park TV media channel for next year is being developed - this will allow advertisers to have a great outlet to be represented on in the parks.  Happily, Brian pointed out that they will do it in style, and not just start hanging up ads and giving sponsors to everything in the parks (cough... Six Flags... cough).

• Season pass attendance now makes up 40% of the overall attendance, up from 30-32% just three years ago.  The push to sell passes has really paid off, especially with increased per caps instead of lowered ones as you might expect with pass holders.

• Cedar Fair seems more content with holding attendance steady and working on increasing the amount spent to enter and once in the parks, having realized that chasing attendance gains can be unproductive.  An interesting example, Cedar Point currently does several hundred thousand less guests than its record level, but the per caps have increased so much with higher economically based visitors that they would rather have the fewer visitors!  Totally in my words, not theirs, but people with more money spend more money, and people with less represent much lower per caps that they're not interested in.

• A web portal for season pass holders is currently being built, a part of continuing to build that attendance base and keep them interested.  I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with as a loyalty program for pass holders was tried at Kings Island and subsequently cancelled.


• The two sold water parks were not because they weren't making money, instead they realize that spending capital on new rides at water parks pays off much less than using that capital at even the smaller amusement parks.  In that idea they had the chance to sell those two, and jumped on it.  In 2014 they'll use 80% of the money from those sales to add to parks that will increase their revenues incrementally (like for instance in campgrounds).

• As expanded as Halloween already is in the parks, they see that market being able to grow at many properties.  So I'd watch for even more expansions and focus on the Haunt events in the future.  Christmas events still sound like they won't happen, but they're looking to create some sort of event for the Spring.


• After really studying the capital spent at parks over the past seven years, they've learned that while it is nice to really spread out capital and put something in new at each park each year, that method really doesn't pay off.  Instead, having a couple rather large additions, some smaller, and some parks sitting 'out a year' makes the most financial sense.  Also they have learned to tie into big expansions renovations and other improvements - citing that GateKeeper could have been a $20 or $22 million ride, but then became a $25 million ride to break records, and then eventually a $30 million project to redo the front gate, too.  Overall that extra spend for a larger project pays off in their findings.


• And right along those lines, the parks that take a 'year off' don't just sit and do nothing.  Kings Dominion is a perfect example of that theme, celebrating a big anniversary with relatively cheap additions that still are worthy of marketing - and at the same time productively 'sitting out a year.'

• Do not look for Cedar Fair to try to build a new park anytime soon, if ever.  But if they could buy one they're interested in the Southwest and places like Florida, where the weather is much better than in the North.  Anything good for sale these days?

 

[jazma]

Interesting, Gary.  I can tell you a few things: they are already back on a "something new for every park every year" kick, so that changed.  You can see that in the latest Investor reports just out.  Also, a few months back they said they were looking at a Winterfest-lite for the other parks, which presumably means a return to WOF, and VF, something at the CP hotels, possibly Schlitterbahn, since every other park has something already.   Leaving Mia off the list since they don't even have Halloween....

[jazma]

I think too you have to look at it as they were looking at regional markets to grow in, and MSP fit the bill, as did Charlotte.  The most likely additions, I think, at VF are a return of ValleyScare someday, a hotel or campground to drive incremental revenue, and trying to extend the season with some type of Winter event, since its working great in Toronto/Vaughn.