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The Six Flags Magic Mountain (SFMM) Discussion Thread

Page 2218 - Wonder Woman Roller Coaster for 2022!

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Wouldn't it make more sense for Magic Mountain to simply refurbish Viper? They could replace the trains with Mk-1212 trains like on Ninja at SFOG. They could rebrand it and renew interest in the ride among park visitors.

It just seems more likely to me, as the chain seems to be doing quick and inexpensive investments right now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it looks unlikely.

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Wouldn't it make more sense for Magic Mountain to simply refurbish Viper? They could replace the trains with Mk-1212 trains like on Ninja at SFOG. They could rebrand it and renew interest in the ride among park visitors.

It just seems more likely to me, as the chain seems to be doing quick and inexpensive investments right now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it looks unlikely.

 

yeah, they should put some VR on it.

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Wouldn't it make more sense for Magic Mountain to simply refurbish Viper? They could replace the trains with Mk-1212 trains like on Ninja at SFOG. They could rebrand it and renew interest in the ride among park visitors.

It just seems more likely to me, as the chain seems to be doing quick and inexpensive investments right now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it looks unlikely.

 

yeah, they should put some VR on it.

It couldn't be any worse than an SLC with VR. SFDK is willing to take that risk.

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Wouldn't it make more sense for Magic Mountain to simply refurbish Viper? They could replace the trains with Mk-1212 trains like on Ninja at SFOG. They could rebrand it and renew interest in the ride among park visitors.

It just seems more likely to me, as the chain seems to be doing quick and inexpensive investments right now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it looks unlikely.

 

I suspect there is a reason Six Flags chose to tear down all their other Arrow mega loopers.

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It's like Elissa, and others have referenced... If Viper isn't getting good ridership numbers anymore, and I'd be shocked if it was, then replacing it with something that will become a sure-fire crowd pleaser makes a lot of sense. Maintenance costs for the older coaster will only continue to go up, and if there aren't that many people riding it any longer, its removal for something else makes a lot of sense. As for what constitutes a sure-fire crowd pleaser, the Dive Coaster sure fits the bill. While I know they have very mixed reviews in enthusiast circles, the fact of the matter is that they are VERY exciting and attention grabbing coasters to the GP, which is the demographic that Amusement Parks are looking at. The addition of Valravn at CP has taken what was already a popular destination, and given it an even greater surge in attendance, and I can assure you that from going to CP with a wide-cross section of GP individuals this year, it was highly talked about, and anticipated from the second it was visible in the park. Considering there isn't anything remotely like one on the West coast, SFMM would really make waves by installing the biggest and best Dive Coaster yet, and it would probably produce a massive spike in attendance.

 

As for location in the park, looking at potential locations that would not involve removing a coaster, none of them have the prominence that putting a Dive Coaster in Viper's spot does. Alongside, and towering over X2, as visitors enter the park, it would definitely form an impressive statement, and excite arriving guests even more than they already were - much like the Valravn effect at CP. If this rumor is true, it's a brilliant move by SFMM, and as much as we enthusiasts would appreciate a B&M Giga like Fury (but taller) back there, I suspect the GP will be much more excited by a Dive Coaster.

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I suspect there is a reason Six Flags chose to tear down all their other Arrow mega loopers.

 

Many years ago when I was running my Magic Mountain site one of the most common things that I was told was that the park was considering removing Viper. I heard this from multiple people who had always proved reliable. My understanding is that the park was always concerned about rising maintenance costs and how the ride would age long term. The ride always has had a decent capacity and moved a lot of guests, so it had that in its favor. Keep in mind these rumors I was hearing go back to the early 2000's.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I have assumed for a while that removing Viper has always been a foregone conclusion. It has always been a matter of when not if.

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I suspect there is a reason Six Flags chose to tear down all their other Arrow mega loopers.

 

This x1000. Not only the mega loopers, but Steel Phantom and Drachen Fire as well.

 

There were many issues with the mega loopers that included track fatigue, wheel wear, and general roughness. After Shockwave was installed in 1988 at SFGAm, the following season some elements of the track had to be replaced with sections that were stronger and had more cross ties. Viper, being the third generation model, was the "best" of the three speaking technically, but it also came with some reasons why.

 

One: Trim Breaks Two: A supply of parts from the other two mega loopers.

 

It may be the reason why Viper has even lasted this long. Arrow's looping coasters worked well at reasonable heights (Nessie is probably the max), but once they hit a height like they did with Vortex at KI, the trains and element designs couldn't handle it anymore.

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A supply of parts from the other two mega loopers.

 

This is probably a major reason why Viper lasted as long as it did. When they closed Shockwave and then Great American Scream Machine it probably made it much more appealing to keep Viper going for awhile since they had a ton of free spare parts to use on it.

 

It's interesting how Six Flags seems to be much happier to remove Arrow loopers than Cedar Fair is. If this rumor is true I believe it would leave them with only Demon, Ninja and Steamin Demon. I really don't think Ninja can possibly be long for this world either. I do expect the other two to run for a long time because of their modest size and the fact that Steamin Demon kind of serves as an advertisement for Great Escape due to it's location and I don't see them ever caring enough to replace it with anything better. Plus how much wear and tear can it possibly have when you only run 1 train and only dispatch it once every 10 minutes?

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I don't think parts are an issue, as far as I know S&S still supplies parts for most Arrow models.

Not like KBF probably having to machine all their parts for Montezooma. I know at WCB Jeff G. mentioned that for that reason Montezooma was easily the most expensive ride in the park to maintain, even more than Xcelerator.

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Well it wouldn't surprise me if Viper was on the way out after the park opened to the public on WCB Saturday the park was packed and yet I still didn't see one full train of people go out. The rider ship for the ride is just not there to support it with it's aging and high maintenance plus it sits on prime real estate at the front of the park. So Arrow corner my be coming to an end but I hope it remains Alan Schilke showcase meaning X2 and a T-Rex!!!

 

I think a Giga perched up on that hill would be way more visually impressive than a B&M Diver. I'm hoping SFMM see that with the success of Twisted colossus that every coaster doesn't have to be inversion monster and that airtime is loved just as much if not more than inversions. I think a giga airtime monster would give SFMM the nice 1- 2 airtime punch that the park desperately needs imo. I mean even the dark ride is supposed to include a virtual loop can we just get one non-inverting airtime monster in this park???

 

Speaking of Airtime Apocalypse was kicking major A$$ last Saturday just relentless imo beside TC it provides the second best airtime in the park it was awesome!!!

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I wonder if the fact that Viper had to be built to withstand seismic activity is the reason why it was able to outlast GASM and Shockwave.

 

That only applies to the footers, not the ride structure itself. It's lasted because sections of track have been replaced numerous times (in addition to trains being rebuilt).

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I wonder if the fact that Viper had to be built to withstand seismic activity is the reason why it was able to outlast GASM and Shockwave.

 

That only applies to the footers, not the ride structure itself. It's lasted because sections of track have been replaced numerous times (in addition to trains being rebuilt).

 

which track sections have been replaced numerous times? did they do that with vortex too?

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I wonder if the fact that Viper had to be built to withstand seismic activity is the reason why it was able to outlast GASM and Shockwave.

 

That only applies to the footers, not the ride structure itself. It's lasted because sections of track have been replaced numerous times (in addition to trains being rebuilt).

 

which track sections have been replaced numerous times? did they do that with vortex too?

 

I think ive read some where in the past, the first few of the first drop. Immediately after the chain

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Clearly not much love for Viper here but I will stand with that small group people with sore necks who would hate to see it go.

 

Viper really does have some historical significance in the world of coasters -- being the only 7 looper Arrow left in existence. I completely agree with everyone that this is a numbers game. If ridership numbers are low and maintenance is high anyone with half a business brain can figure out what the result should be.

 

That said -- I would argue that before this season Revolution wasn't exactly setting any turnstyle records either. Six Flags just dumped a whole bunch of money into that ride to breathe some new life in to it (and I don't mean the silly VR stuff).

 

I would bet (but have no proof) that maintenance on Revolution can't be far off from Viper (might even be higher) simply because of parts availability. Yes, Rev now has new coaches but I believe the chassis is still vintage Schwarzkopf. S&S still supplies parts for Arrows but I don't know if the same can be said of Schwarzkopf rides of an even older vintage. That means custom fabrication if you need something for Revolution versus buying spare parts off the shelf from S&S for Viper.

 

You can probably make the case that Revolution had historical significance on its side which helped drive the decision to re-invest in the ride. I would argue Viper has a similar historical pedigree, though not going back quite as far as Viper.

 

I also don't think a Phantom's Revenge type overhaul works for Viper. The inversions are what make Viper unique IMHO and are also it's Achilles's heel. Steel Phanton's claim to fame is the second drop in to the ravine. It was easy to keep that and then work with the open terrain to redo the second half of that ride. Viper is really pretty compact if you think about it so I don't see turning it in to some kind of airtime monster as an option. There's just not enough space.

 

It would be interesting for someone with first-hand engineering experience to explain why Arrows go to hell over time, aside from the usual statement about the cg being the center of the coach instead of the rider, etc. Arrow track can be tamed (Tennessee Tornado) so It seems reasonable that a decent engineering firm could make the necessary tweaks to Viper's track profile to really make the ride smooth for years to come.

 

That's probably wishful thinking on my part. I really hope Six Flags considers a Revolution-style re-enginnering on Viper. Although re-imaging a second coaster in two consecutive seasons probably wouldn't go over well with the GP.

 

In the end -- if they do decide to scrap Viper I'll be there for the last dispatch for sure.

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^Tennessee Tornado was designed to modern standards. Not with "coat hanger" engineering.

 

Also, if I remember right, sections of the first three loops have been replaced/reinforced with extra cross ties over the years. I believe the last one was when the ride was periodically closed for X construction.

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The ROI on Viper is in the red now I'm sure and it's the #1 ride that people complain about to guest relations. The amount of complaints about the ride are staggering it's kind of hilarious.

 

Needless to say, if corporate decided to axe any coaster at Magic Mountain, Viper is definitely at the top of that list.

 

And there is next to no true historical significance attached to Viper. Nothing that actually matters to the public or management.

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^Tennessee Tornado was designed to modern standards. Not with "coat hanger" engineering.

 

This is a bit off topic but it's really a shame that this was the last Arrow looper. After that it seems like every park went B&M floorless happy and honestly I really wish we had more awesome rides like Tornado and less mediocre floorless coasters.

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It's a damn shame if Terminator has gotten rough. It always makes me nervous when parks add these really fast relentless wooden coasters, because if they're not committed to baby it and constantly spend money, they are going to become unbearable. And lets be serious SFMM is a huge park with probably little maintenance staff, it isn't a park that is going to spend much more than it needs to keep things running.

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It's a damn shame if Terminator has gotten rough. It always makes me nervous when parks add these really fast relentless wooden coasters, because if they're not committed to baby it and constantly spend money, they are going to become unbearable. And lets be serious SFMM is a huge park with probably little maintenance staff, it isn't a park that is going to spend much more than it needs to keep things running.

Apocalypse really was not rough. I understand they did some track work right before WCB, and it apparently helped.

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With the exception of Revolution and maybe Gold Rusher, no other coaster in the park needs to be preserved for nostalgic or historical purposes. SFMM has always been sort of the Las Vegas of theme parks; constantly changing, out with the old in with the new.

 

I won't lie, I will tear up a little bit if it leaves, the way it dominates the skyline gives it a unique aesthetic, especially as it's a become a rare Arrow looper that is increasingly outnumbered by B&Ms and others but we shouldn't let nostalgia cloud our judgement. It lost its mojo only a few years after it opened. I first rode it in 1998 and even then it was jerking people necks around. It should've been removed the same time Deja Vu and Psyclone got the ax, if not sooner. But for so long it was cheap to maintain and operate but that's no longer the case.

 

I'd love to see a Intamin giga as much as the next guy but a dive coaster would still be an awesome choice as well IMO.

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