The Six Flags Magic Mountain (SFMM) Discussion Thread

[RIP Psyclone]

There's one thing that occured to me, and that is that dual loading stations would have been ideal for X2, but I'm sure that would have been way out of the budget. Unloading and loading in the same spot will undoubtedly help, but I fear there will be stacking, making the 3rd train unnecessary. But yes, please, let's give them a chance. Dispatches of about 1:30 is what I think they're aiming for.

[robbalvey]

^ While I'm sure it's easy to second guess. I am sure that this was thought about before they made the decision to spend the money to change it.

 

Regardless of some popular opinion around here, these guys DO know what they are doing.

 

--Robb

[ghost007jas]

^ They do? Seriously? Who would have thought those college degrees actually mean anything!?

 

I always thought it would have been a good idea to have people loading in the former unload spot and the current load spot. I'll be interested to see how they end up running this baby to maximize capacity.

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

There's one thing that occured to me, and that is that dual loading stations would have been ideal for X2, but I'm sure that would have been way out of the budget. Unloading and loading in the same spot will undoubtedly help, but I fear there will be stacking, making the 3rd train unnecessary. But yes, please, let's give them a chance. Dispatches of about 1:30 is what I think they're aiming for.

 

I thought that this would help to load/unload intervals. Here is how.

 

One solution to this problen is just building a downward stairway under "the bridge" where load and unload meet and use that as an exit. That way you can unload and load both trains at once (use gates at current unload as queue gates) This way you will always have one train ready to go

[Double0Kevin]

There's one thing that occured to me, and that is that dual loading stations would have been ideal for X2, but I'm sure that would have been way out of the budget. Unloading and loading in the same spot will undoubtedly help, but I fear there will be stacking, making the 3rd train unnecessary. But yes, please, let's give them a chance. Dispatches of about 1:30 is what I think they're aiming for.

 

One thing I've noticed about 3 train operation at SFDK on Medusa, the only people who seem to care about stacking is enthusiasts and theme park employees... the GP doesn't really care if they are stacked up cause they got on the ride... and if you run 3 trains, you can have more of them on the ride to be happy.

 

On X2, at least if you load and unload in the same spot, your cutting out that excess time in the unload station that it takes to tilt the seats forward, unload, clear the station, tilt the seats back, move the train forward, tilt the seats up again. Now we only move the seats forward and back 1 time per cycle.

[arrowfanman]

^ He's not talking about the guest perception of 3 trains. He's talking about the mathematical fact that if you stack 3 trains, you aren't gaining any more throughput advantage than you would with two. Simply now the guests don't just wait in line--they have to wait to get off of the ride too.

 

It will be interesting to see how X2 dispatches fair.

 

 

 

-Jahan

[Double0Kevin]

Yeah, I get that... I'm simply saying most people don't care if the park is getting more throughput. And in the long run, 3 trains will help out with a higher throughput, maybe not hourly, but your accumulative total for the day. But yeah, it really does come down to the operation of the ride... I'll be interested in seeing how SFMM handles it.

[PeoplemoverMatt]

This is the goal. Let's give them a chance to make this happen. I'm confident that it will.

 

And remember, there was capacity and maintenance issues with "X", not "X2"

 

Give them a chance to get it right, please!

 

--Robb "Did you say dancing donkeys?" Alvey

 

Hey Robb, I'm with you, but I want to see those goals accomplished BEFORE any sort of frilly extra is added. X2 and X are the same ride sans paint & trains & loading arrangement, so as far as I'm concerned, X2 inheirited every capacity/maintenance problem X had. That's the whole point of X2 isn't it? To fix the problems? I hope they do, and I hope they don't compromise that goal in the pursuit of extras like queue music, effects, etc.

 

And yes, I did say dancing donkeys. People LOVE dancing donkeys!

 

One thing I've noticed about 3 train operation at SFDK on Medusa, the only people who seem to care about stacking is enthusiasts and theme park employees... the GP doesn't really care if they are stacked up cause they got on the ride...

 

Well, think about that, the GP aren't able to care, because in learning why stacking is bad, they'd have to either be an enthusiast already, or have some friend that is an enthusiast. But the GP should care because stacking reduces hourly capacity making lines slower.

 

If you took a poll, I doubt any GP if asked "Would you care if the park is knowingly making your wait time longer, and could fix the problem, but simply isn't making the effort?" would answer "no". The GP just isn't aware. All they know is that they're waiting. If they did know some of the reasons, they'd want problems like stacking to be eliminated as much as possible.

 

I'm not saying this as a hit to anything Magic Mountain is or isn't currently trying to do or fix. I'm just emphasizing priorities.

 

-- PMM

[Double0Kevin]

If you took a poll, I doubt any GP if asked "Would you care if the park is knowingly making your wait time longer, and could fix the problem, but simply isn't making the effort?" would answer "no". The GP just isn't aware. All they know is that they're waiting. If they did know some of the reasons, they'd want problems like stacking to be eliminated as much as possible.

 

You act like Six Flags is in the business to intentionally stack and slow lines down to a crawl. Sometimes stacking is an unavoidable evil. The thing most people who visit theme parks, but don't work at one don't realize is often safe operation AND speedy dispatch times don't always agree with each other. Believe me I would love to walk passed an entire train telling them to check their own restraints like on Space Mountain at DL... but the simple fact is, people are dumb... they take their time sitting down and often can't figure out how to properly buckle a seat belt, or don't even try to. But by throwing an extra train on the track and trying your hardest to keep the flow moving, you WILL move the line faster and if stacking occurs, the guests on the ride are at least content with waiting an extra 60 seconds to get off.

[almightyfire]

I used to work on a coaster in the 70's and we had to unload, load with lapbars, seatbelts on lapbars, seatbelts across peoples waist, ask if "anyone riding alone" etc and it was a no no to have 2 trains in the station and if a supervisor was walking through the park and didnt see a train at all times on the track, you got called. With todays computerized coasters, the darn trains practically load themselves. It is no excuse for even 2 trains being in the station unless there is an emergency. The problem is waiting too long to open the gates to let people on, ride ops taking their time, too much playing and not paying attention between ride ops, etc. I never understood why it took long to load X. Hell just get on sit down and close the bars. I rode it when it first opened and it wasnt that long to load. Universal Studios and Cedar Point had excellent load times when i went there. Viper used to load the next train by the time the other train got to the top of the lift almost. The thing is ride ops dont hustle and maybe this might sound stupid but to me the park makes more money if the load times are slower. it makes the guest have to stay longer to ride what they want and in the summer u WILL spend more money on drinks because of the heat.

 

Just an assumption.

 

What all parks need to do is let us meaning coaster enthusiats come in one day and how the ride ops how to load and unload successfully within a minuite. It CAN be done successfully and safely.

[xingfu]

LA Times calling confirmation on Flame Throwers.

 

http://travel.latimes.com/daily-deal-blog/?p=1803

 

All come true should add a very nice feature for night riding.

[gisco]

The thing is ride ops dont hustle and maybe this might sound stupid but to me the park makes more money if the load times are slower. it makes the guest have to stay longer to ride what they want and in the summer u WILL spend more money on drinks because of the heat.

 

Happy guests spend more then unhappy guests. Happy guests will return to the park more often the unhappy guests. More guests returning means more money for the park.

[Jew]

You act like Six Flags is in the business to intentionally stack and slow lines down to a crawl. Sometimes stacking is an unavoidable evil. The thing most people who visit theme parks, but don't work at one don't realize is often safe operation AND speedy dispatch times don't always agree with each other. Believe me I would love to walk passed an entire train telling them to check their own restraints like on Space Mountain at DL... but the simple fact is, people are dumb... they take their time sitting down and often can't figure out how to properly buckle a seat belt, or don't even try to. But by throwing an extra train on the track and trying your hardest to keep the flow moving, you WILL move the line faster and if stacking occurs, the guests on the ride are at least content with waiting an extra 60 seconds to get off.

 

Safe operation AND speedy dispatch times agree with each other if the ride operators are doing a good job. Disneyland is able to do it on all their other coasters, Universal can do it, Cedar Point did it on Raptor, we used to kick ass at RRv (circa 2002)...

 

Also, 3 trains doesn't necessarily move the line faster. Stacking with 3 CAN decrease throughput. Time waiting=lost dispatch time.

[RIP Psyclone]

Robb (& others): I did attend WCB, and I have to say not only was I very impressed, but it was by far my best visit to the park, EVER. If the idea of dual loading stations was ever mentioned for X2, I'd guess it would have been shot down early for budgetary reasons. I respect that, and the fact they went the extra mile for X2 rather than a just a new paint job. But Robb, myself, and others agree that we'll just have to wait and see. I'm just curious as to how the "cavernous" back half of the station will be utilized. X was my favorite coaster in the park, so of course my anticipation for X2 naturally comes along with a little skepticism.

[AllenA07]

On the issue of the fire effects I have decided that I'm going to remain neutral on the subject. If it works it is going to undoubtedly be a very cool effect. Under the old management however I would have been strongly opposed to such an effect because I would be surprised to see it survive beyond the first few months of operation before it disappeared. The new management has paid so much more attention to detail (I didn't even remember that the Viper's eyes lit up until I saw it on here) that I believe they have earned the benefit of the doubt in this situation.

 

With that said my guess is due to wind and fire conditions the fire effect will not be seeing much action during the fall months, however that is something that is beyond the parks control... Unless you're Alton Towers and want to control the rain.

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

I have an on-going arguement with one of my friends that Tatsu has a higher capacity with 2 trains, one station. I tell him that ride should never use just one station, unless it only has one train. Here is why.

Tastu has a circuit cycle time (from upper lift to block brake) of about 40 seconds. from block brake to tranfer/waitings, is another 15 seconds and the lift is takes about 25-30. With that said if you dispatch a train (Train A), you cannot advance the next one (Train B) into the station until "A" clears, so A is out of the station, then you advance "B". Then it has to park. Then the chassis pins have to unlock. Then the seats have to move from "flight" to "load". By that time train A is coming out of pretzel and you are not even physically able to load a train yet. If that train had a seperate spot to go that would speep things up, wouldn't it? (Station 2) I know that 2 stations help out drastically because I know that ride like the back of my hand. My friend does not.

 

How this relates to X and the current topic. There will always be unknowns in the world of loading procedures. There is always going to be someone in line who can see a train sitting in transfers who says "Why aren't they running that one?", not paying attention to the fact the fiberglass covering is missing or that row two and three have no seats on them. I'm sure that the park did not invest so much money in this ride so far to have it all flop. We will see an increase in the dispatch intervals, reliability, and safety. As for the operation? I loved being at Tatsu, and I showed that through my work, however it's hard to get a 16 year old kid who is just working there to make some extra cash for the prom to get as excited as I was. So that's one thing that will be around for a while.

[Nemesis Inferno]

but the simple fact is, people are dumb... they take their time sitting down and often can't figure out how to properly buckle a seat belt, or don't even try to.

 

QFT

 

The amount of ADULTS who cannot work out how to pull a bar down on Vampire at Chessie is astonishingly high... Especially when they've seen it happen several times before

 

It's a true belief that people are stupid in some way... Especially at theme parks...

 

On the subject of Stacking, it is sometimes unavoidable due to (on Vampire), moaning at people taking off their shoes when already told, parents taking 10 minutes to put their own kids in rather than leave them for the people paid to do it, large people struggling to fit or unable to fit, generally manual releasing a bar, people taking ages to put bags on the platform, people not standing behind the gates...

 

That's at LEAST 6 issues that rise up from people not paying attention to themselves, even when they hear the instructions at least 4/5 times before their own turn...

 

 

On the subject of fire... Fire is always good...

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

but the simple fact is, people are dumb... they take their time sitting down and often can't figure out how to properly buckle a seat belt, or don't even try to.

 

QFT

 

The amount of ADULTS who cannot work out how to pull a bar down on Vampire at Chessie is astonishingly high... Especially when they've seen it happen several times before

 

 

People can stand at the loading gates, watch the people who get on before them get on the ride properly, and get on two cylces later and screw it all up. It's one of those things that come with the territory.

[Jew]

Guests are dumb. Part of well operated theme/amusement park is making sure your employees have all the tools/training to properly deal with them. Hopefully SFMM will get there starting with X2...

 

No need for excuses...guests aren't any smarter at the parks with good operations...

[xingfu]

Correcting my previous statement.

 

please read as; fireball effects in lieu of flame throwers.

 

Did not mean to lead anyone astray

[RIP Psyclone]

Hourly capacity comes down to thing only: dispatch times. In theory it works, and I saw a Tatsu train that dispatched one right after the hour. If the dispatching or a 2nd train had to wait until one is well underway the course, it's not as quick as having a 3rd train ready to go. We've seen that oppoptunity lost over the years with Tatsu when only loading statiomn ise used , so one can only be apprehensive when it comes to X2 and its single station.

[BeemerBoy]

I've never ridden X, so I can't speak from experience (only word of mouth), but why do I get this sinking suspision that the ride will inevitably still suck, and management has carefully considered a "plan B" of sorts featuring as many cosmetic distractions as possible? I'd like to think that with all the money spent, the new trains will indeed help the ride, but I just don't know. It just seems so odd to add all this other stuff. I realize it's mostly in place to market it as a different experience, but shouldn't a good ride stand up on it's own? As it's going now, I'm still expecting to see Guy's floating head in the tunnel.

 

Wait, it just occurred to me that Dave needs to be a consultant on these visual "additions."

[Double0Kevin]

Guests are dumb. Part of well operated theme/amusement park is making sure your employees have all the tools/training to properly deal with them. Hopefully SFMM will get there starting with X2...

 

No need for excuses...guests aren't any smarter at the parks with good operations...

 

I agree with you there, you just got to remember that Six Flags is broke and they can't always provide the best of tools. It's unfair to compare Raptor to... well, any other B&M really. They run Raptor on 9 operators at a time. 6 Attendants checking restraints, a panel operator, a greeter/height checker at the entrance, and a grouper as you enter the station... at least that's what I recall from when I work at CP in 05. Six Flags just isn't ready to pay for that much labor at one coaster... thus we have to deal with stacking hear and there.

 

Overall I have noticed the SF parks have been pushing to get their crews aware of stacking and hurrying them along so it happens very occasionally.

[Meteornotes]

Wait, it just occurred to me that Dave needs to be a consultant on these visual "additions."

 

You are very wise.

 

And yes, they should totally consult me. The results would be memorable. Likely resulting in the breaking of nine billion different national and international laws, but it would be memorable combination of death metal, explosions, and fire-breathing dinosaurs. And that's just the lift hill...

 

dt

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

Tatsu seldom uses that second station due to staffing. that ride at full capacity requires nine operators, not including a breaker (which is important because of those meal violations). This is a number based on a panel operator, and four people checking on either side. Even with two stations now, this ride does not see 9 operators at one time. This is just a theory, but if parks invested more in staffing, people would not be as irrateable while waithng in line, thus, likely to return. I went to Cedar Point in 2007, lines are two to three hours long, but the crews are efficient, so you can't get mad at the park or operators, because they're holding up their end of your visit. Now if you wait in likne for three hours, get up to the station, and see some orange tag texting on their phone or some guy trying to ''pull numbers", it gives the park a bad image, and give the guest a bad experience. Add that to the already understaffed attraction and it is a recipie for disaster.