The Six Flags Magic Mountain (SFMM) Discussion Thread

[goatdan]

It's not impossible that there's a mechanism in the train or car that causes it at that point, in fact I'd say it has to be, only because both X2 and Dinoconda do the exact same thing at the exact same place while Eejanaika having different cars does not do it. (Its also worth noting that Eejanaika's station is unique - the floor falls away like an invert/floorless instead of having the seats rotate back upon dispatch)

 

Heh, maybe we should take this to a private message or different thread about "What is up with 4D coasters?" so I'll keep this short because I feel like I hijacked a thread accidentally to theorize about this, but...

 

I believe Dinoconda doesn't have sound. If that is the case, that train has no power, and a mech like this would really need power to function. It could be done, but it would be a LOT more costly then just designing the rail to force the rocking from the beginning, which would have been how Dinoconda would have been designed - any moving part is infinitely more breakable.

 

I also have managed to see X2's trains up close, and I didn't see anything that would have been able to perform the function of locking the train more to the spin bar or whatever it is called at a certain point.

 

This is all the stuff that I find so fascinating about this ride - the design of it is just so strangely done that unlike nearly everything else where you can usually figure out what the designers did that went wrong, looking at X2 there just seems to be magical stuff that happens that makes it as rough as it is. It's why X2 is at the top of my list - I find rides with design flaws or strange decisions utterly fascinating.

 

Edit: And now, I'll stop posting about X2 here, I don't want to derail the Magic Mountain thread with a ton more semi-interesting at best theorizing on ride issues I ultimately know basically nothing about... but I would be happy to continue in a thread dedicate to it

[chadster]

YOLO!

 

Yes, pointless comment, thought it fit nicely here

[TopThrill182]

Goatdan, thank you for taking the time to post that. Very informational.

 

However, I'm still not convinced that high rail tolerance is to blame. If the rotational rails were subject to high tolerances (leading to the cars' extra back and forth shaking), then wouldn't the weight bearing rails be subject to high tolerances as well? If that were the case, then wouldn't we be feeling up and down / side to side roughness coming from the movement of the actual ride carriages? In other words, we'd be feeling roughness coming in from two dimensions.

 

As far as I can tell, there is no such roughness coming from the movement of the actual train. The only roughness I feel is coming from the violent back and forth rotational shaking coming from the seats.

[Angry_Gumball]

Having ridden X2 once (a month ago actually) I found it enjoyable...pretty rough though on the torso but I still enjoyed it. I can't say that it is one I could marathon as it does kind of bounce you around a bit, combined with the hard-ish restraints. On the flipside, I will take X2's roughness/bounciness/rockiness over Revolution any day. I can tolerate roughness but when my head starts getting smacked repeatedly, I'm done with it.

[singemfrc]

^^^^ True re: sound, but most newer coasters still have some power while in or near the station, for example to lock and release restraints or run diagnostics..it could be something similar. You can also see electronic boxes similar to the ones X2 have on the back of Dinoconda's cars.

 

^ You must not have experienced the same pain on X2 that I did, cause it was far more violent and painful than Revolution, but I completely agree with you.. head trauma like you get on Revolution and Kong is intolerable. I've found a way to ride both (The Kong strategy works on multiple coasters but Revolution is different) without getting it, but I wish I didn't have to.

[TopThrill182]

At least X's head rest has some plush padding. With defensive riding, I feel like your head doesn't get bashed around too much. Then again, I haven't yet found a way to protect my calves during the last raven turn...

[laqueefa]

At least X's head rest has some plush padding. With defensive riding, I feel like your head doesn't get bashed around too much. Then again, I haven't yet found a way to protect my calves during the last raven turn...

 

Maybe its due to my size (or now lack thereof), but I have yet to have a rough ride on X2. Either that, or I'm too medicated to notice... I'll just shut up now. Yolo.

[Tmcdllr]

Goatdan thank you, that was an awesome multi post! And yes, that is what I was referring to, the tolerance difference of where the third rail is and where it should be in relation to the main rails. That was cool, thanks!

[Angry_Gumball]

^^^^ True re: sound, but most newer coasters still have some power while in or near the station, for example to lock and release restraints or run diagnostics..it could be something similar. You can also see electronic boxes similar to the ones X2 have on the back of Dinoconda's cars.

 

^ You must not have experienced the same pain on X2 that I did, cause it was far more violent and painful than Revolution, but I completely agree with you.. head trauma like you get on Revolution and Kong is intolerable. I've found a way to ride both (The Kong strategy works on multiple coasters but Revolution is different) without getting it, but I wish I didn't have to.

 

I tried every which way on Revolution...the "Giraffe Neck" technique (stretching neck to attempt keeping head above restraints), head against rest, going with the turns, bracing, even went as far as sticking my hands between to act as pads but still no luck. Once you leave that lift, Anton lets out his wrath...you get the pleasure of feeling his disapproval from the rather neutered/botched ride (though those trims were a nice sigh of relief).

 

When I rode X2, I was in the very last train but took an inside seat. I had also rode Revolution (SFMM's turd) in the very last row. I'll gladly take on X2 over Rev any day

[AusCoasterFan]

Even if the ride is "violent", I don't have any problem with it. It never hurts to ride if you get the restraints on right, and although the trains rumble around a lot (the ride isn't rattly or bumpy from what I've noticed), it kind of adds to the chaotic nature and theme of the ride. It's a great ride; I still don't see why so many people don't like it.

 

This is exactly how I feel about X2.

 

I second that. It's about my favourite coaster

[rawrtotheargh]

When the forces of the ensuring ride come into play, it seems like the cars' free movement is kicked into overdrive, as evidenced in the final raven turn when the seats jerk forward and backward so quickly and forcefully that your head and legs bang painfully against the seat.

 

Is there no way to "tighten" the train mechanisms in such a way that the seats can't rotate so freely?

 

I'd have to agree and say that you are right on. There is free movement with the rack and pinion system. Its very noticeable when in the station or on brake run if you simply pick up your legs and then bang them against the leg rest repeatedly. You will notice that you can rock the seats and that the rail doesn't hold the seat/pickle assembly perfectly firm. So then, as the train moves around the course any slight variance in the rail and/or acceleration and deceleration could therefore cause the seats to rock back and forth due to this slack in the system. So, as the train is racing through these high G maneuvers through the course it would make sense that the seats would rock that much harder (violently) given the massive amount of energy involved. I have only ridden X2 but I would imagine they all use the same rack and pinion system and if you were to try and rock the seats yourself you would notice it is possible on all three.

 

It does suck that on some rides you have to learn how to ride it and "roll with the punches" but nothing in life comes easy right?

[Sir Clinksalot]

My last ride on the original "X" was probably 2-3 years before it closed to become X2. It literally messed up my back for a month and I swore I'd never ride it again. Even after it became "X2" it took me a few months before I was willing to give it another try and that's when I had one of my "good" rides.

 

I've probably ridden X/X2 50 times and I've maybe had 6-7 what I'd call "good" rides on it. I won't sit anywhere other than the first 3 rows and even then it's not great most of the time. I think the concept is great, but I just wish there was a way to get a consistently good ride. I think leg restraints similar to the B&M Flyers would certainly help some but that's not the only problem.

[singemfrc]

I tried every which way on Revolution...the "Giraffe Neck" technique (stretching neck to attempt keeping head above restraints), head against rest, going with the turns, bracing, even went as far as sticking my hands between to act as pads but still no luck.

You're on the right track, but you have to put them in the right place, if theyre too far down you end up just punching yourself in the head If you put your hands up on the top of the OTSR high enough that its actually closer to your neck, so your head isnt free to move back and forth, it all but eliminates the ear banging. It looks ridiculous (and it is ridiculous) but it eliminates the pain.

 

I think leg restraints similar to the B&M Flyers would certainly help some but that's not the only problem.

I was thinking the same thing..I don't think it would 100% solve the problem but it would certainly help..of course this shouldn't be happening in the first place.

[willthethrill]

The rack and pinion system is mechanical and therefor is subject to wear. As the train ages and the cycle count increases, the composite metal gear teeth will wear down thus increasing gap size between connecting components which will result in a less smooth rotation especially at speed. This is not an issue that can be resolved easily because even if the rack and pinions are brand new you cannot have the gear teeth fit perfectly; the train speed and seat rotation speed are much too quick in a system like this so initial gap tolerances must exist to avoid the chance of grinding or jamming of the gears.

 

Additionally you have to have tolerances compensate for temperature induced changes in the third rail. Don't forget, just as with any metal the third rail is subject to expansion and contraction as the weather changes which can greatly alter the dynamics of the system. (I suspect this may be a reason these types of rides have only been built in parks with a relatively moderate climate.) As mentioned earlier even a gap of half a millimeter at the gear teeth will be amplified greatly as the distance increases through the seats and out to your extremities. This is why you can rock your chair even at a standstill.

[VCXfreak]

The rack and pinion system is mechanical and therefor is subject to wear. As the train ages and the cycle count increases, the composite metal gear teeth will wear down thus increasing gap size between connecting components which will result in a less smooth rotation especially at speed. This is not an issue that can be resolved easily because even if the rack and pinions are brand new you cannot have the gear teeth fit perfectly; the train speed and seat rotation speed are much too quick in a system like this so initial gap tolerances must exist to avoid the chance of grinding or jamming of the gears.

 

Additionally you have to have tolerances compensate for temperature induced changes in the third rail. Don't forget, just as with any metal the third rail is subject to expansion and contraction as the weather changes which can greatly alter the dynamics of the system. (I suspect this may be a reason these types of rides have only been built in parks with a relatively moderate climate.) As mentioned earlier even a gap of half a millimeter at the gear teeth will be amplified greatly as the distance increases through the seats and out to your extremities. This is why you can rock your chair even at a standstill.

 

This is true! When i was at the park on Tuesday I was looking at the teeth that move the seats and you can see them getting rounded out! Hopefully on the next refurb they will pay attention to these parts!

[robbalvey]

The rack and pinion system is mechanical and therefor is subject to wear. As the train ages and the cycle count increases, the composite metal gear teeth will wear down thus increasing gap size between connecting components which will result in a less smooth rotation especially at speed. This is not an issue that can be resolved easily because even if the rack and pinions are brand new you cannot have the gear teeth fit perfectly; the train speed and seat rotation speed are much too quick in a system like this so initial gap tolerances must exist to avoid the chance of grinding or jamming of the gears.

 

Additionally you have to have tolerances compensate for temperature induced changes in the third rail. Don't forget, just as with any metal the third rail is subject to expansion and contraction as the weather changes which can greatly alter the dynamics of the system. (I suspect this may be a reason these types of rides have only been built in parks with a relatively moderate climate.) As mentioned earlier even a gap of half a millimeter at the gear teeth will be amplified greatly as the distance increases through the seats and out to your extremities. This is why you can rock your chair even at a standstill.

This technical stuff is nice, but it's all meaningless to me. All I care about is -

 

Does the ride beat the crap out of me or not?

 

All I know is that at one point it didn't beat the crap out of me, and now it does. I don't care what the excuses are.

Edited May 23, 2013 by robbalvey

[willthethrill]

^ thanks? I haven't been on it in a couple seasons but it seems like that design may be as close to perfection as can be obtained outside of using some crazy expensive composite materials on future installations. But those rides are already expensive enough so I don't really see that type of investment being made. I can handle one or two go-arounds per visit, still worth a little pain for me...

Edited May 23, 2013 by willthethrill

[SenseOFone]

^^Sorry to hear that Robb. As a coaster enthusiast, I find the guts of how a coaster runs just as interesting as riding. I guess it helps that I'm an engineering student.

 

This discussion about the X2 trains is rather interesting, with some interesting theories. One thing people have mentioned is the Dinoconda trains seem to do the same thing as the X2 train, whereas Eujanaika does not. I remember when it was X, and that hard rocking motion at the beginning of the ride was evident with the old trains as well. It's most likely something with the track setup that somehow was fixed in Eujanaika, but then reintroduced at Dinoconda.

[willthethrill]

^ I feel that somehow the radius of that turn has an effect on that "bouncing". I'm totally not smart enough to figure out why though.

[VCXfreak]

The rack and pinion system is mechanical and therefor is subject to wear. As the train ages and the cycle count increases, the composite metal gear teeth will wear down thus increasing gap size between connecting components which will result in a less smooth rotation especially at speed. This is not an issue that can be resolved easily because even if the rack and pinions are brand new you cannot have the gear teeth fit perfectly; the train speed and seat rotation speed are much too quick in a system like this so initial gap tolerances must exist to avoid the chance of grinding or jamming of the gears.

 

Additionally you have to have tolerances compensate for temperature induced changes in the third rail. Don't forget, just as with any metal the third rail is subject to expansion and contraction as the weather changes which can greatly alter the dynamics of the system. (I suspect this may be a reason these types of rides have only been built in parks with a relatively moderate climate.) As mentioned earlier even a gap of half a millimeter at the gear teeth will be amplified greatly as the distance increases through the seats and out to your extremities. This is why you can rock your chair even at a standstill.

This technical stuff is nice, but it's all meaningless to me. All I care about is -

 

Does the ride beat the crap out of me or not?

 

All I know is that at one point it didn't beat the crap out of me, and now it does. I don't care what the excuses are.

 

Robb you are funny! YES X2 does beat the crap out you BUT it does have it good rides on a small occasion. I rode it twice on Tuesday and for me the best seat was middle train car 4 inner seat. I had a good ride, not too bumpy during the transitions. Being 6'2 225 is not always fun on these rides!

[singemfrc]

^ Do you remember which train you were on? The one that beat the hell out of me (twice) was train 3. I had tried to get on the inside but both times the inside restraint was stuck in little person mode and wouldnt move up and I had to switch to an outside seat. Maybe train 3 is overdue for rehab.

[goatdan]

However, I'm still not convinced that high rail tolerance is to blame. If the rotational rails were subject to high tolerances (leading to the cars' extra back and forth shaking), then wouldn't the weight bearing rails be subject to high tolerances as well? If that were the case, then wouldn't we be feeling up and down / side to side roughness coming from the movement of the actual ride carriages? In other words, we'd be feeling roughness coming in from two dimensions.

 

The rotational roughness is less tolerant to changes because unlike the wheels on the top / bottom of the trace as they go flipping around, the movement of the third rail controlling the rotation is independent of gravity. To try to explain, think of it like this...

 

Move rides put pressure downward the majority of the time - which makes sense, because that is where gravity pulls you. "Ejector air" is essentially what happens when a train changes from riding on the wheels on the top of the train to the wheels on the bottom, and it is relatively rare. So, what you have with older rides is that 95%+ of their time is spend on the top wheels of the ride, so the variances in the track - which happen gradually over time, it isn't like the track is going up and down an inch every foot or two - mostly don't affect it.

 

A ride like X where the train is flipping over to exert pressure on both sets of wheels, even with a decent amount of variance, wouldn't by itself become a totally rough monster. The transitions would be relatively smooth, and even a half-inch variance in flipping from wheel to wheel at 60 mph would not be enough to send a major jolt through the ride, especially because the direction of travel itself remains unchanged.

 

The rail tolerance in old Arrow rides (and many others, it isn't just Arrow) is not the issue that a lot of them got so rough. That has more to do with their design then anything else... but on a ride like a 4D coaster, where the ride has a rail that is moving riders in a non-traditional way means that the forces of gravity and direction change are totally re-written... and it could make the ride a horrible mess.

 

Random fact - In the realm of "how bad Arrow designs used to be," I was once told and have not been proven wrong that with the exception of ONE coaster, all of Arrow's corkscrews went in the exact same direction. I haven't found any proof that this is wrong. It explains some of the jolty-ness of their rides though because they drop into the corkscrews and put a ton of pressure on the inside running wheels instead of on the top wheels where it belongs. Both Demon rides are perfect examples of this - if the corkscrew element went the other way, the ride would enter them with the pressure being on the top wheels. Instead, they enter them "backwards" and give the riders a side-to-side jolt as the train changes direction.

 

Okay, seriously - someone want to start a thread about this?

 

Back on the topic of the full park, does YOLO have any interactions with other rides? I can't seem to wrap my head around what the layout is exactly, and if it is going under or over other stuff. Anyone have a picture from the observation tower?

[Angry_Gumball]

YOLO interacts with 1 path, the path leading to S:EFK. It flies over the top and dives underneath it for that 2nd and 3rd launch.

[Taylor Finn]

I am going to Magic Mountain next Monday. What is the best approach to attacking the park? We are not considering flash pass just to give some additional info. My mom can't really ride anything too too intense. Is there anything at all for her? The shows aren't up and running until the 2nd week of June. Also, best food options for inside the park? Thanks for your help!

[singemfrc]

I am going to Magic Mountain next Monday. What is the best approach to attacking the park? We are not considering flash pass just to give some additional info. My mom can't really ride anything too too intense. Is there anything at all for her? The shows aren't up and running until the 2nd week of June. Also, best food options for inside the park? Thanks for your help!

This coming monday being a holiday is probably going to be pretty busy. You might want to consider even a regular flash pass if you will be doing any amount of rides. The only decent food inside the park is the Mooseburger Lodge, but if you don't mind leaving the park for lunch, you can just take Magic Mtn Pkwy about 3 minutes down the road to the Town Center mall, there are several good options over there.