The Six Flags Magic Mountain (SFMM) Discussion Thread

[singemfrc]

What's the deal with X2? As others have mentioned, the ride was running pretty violently (in terms of forward and backward shaking). I'm curious why this is the case. IMO, the ride has returned to pre-conversion roughness, even though I was under the impression that the lighter trains were supposed to alleviate this issue. Is the park not doing as much maintenance as they should be doing? Do the trains tear themselves apart? I'm no expert on the mechanics of the ride, but it looks like the trains need tightened somehow so that they don't rotate so freely....

Even if the ride is "violent", I don't have any problem with it. It never hurts to ride if you get the restraints on right, and although the trains rumble around a lot (the ride isn't rattly or bumpy from what I've noticed), it kind of adds to the chaotic nature and theme of the ride. It's a great ride; I still don't see why so many people don't like it.

 

For me, it's the bashing of my calves that hurts. I literally can't ride it without lifting up my legs and putting my heels hard against the seat. But that's just me and my size. Other than that, the ride isn't too rough for me. There are definitely a lot more that are worse.

Yes..just so others are clear, the restraints don't have anything to do with the pain. The problem is how (mainly in the final raven turn) the seat kicks your legs out hard and then immediately slams them violently back into the car, causing a lot of pain to your calves. It's significantly worse on the outside. I've tried crossing my feet or putting my heels up, but the movement is so forceful it throws my feet forward and back no matter what I do. Both of my rides this weekend were on the outside because both times I tried to sit on the inside the seat wouldn't move up and I had to switch to the outside.

 

I still love this ride for what it is supposed to be, and that first drop is still my favorite, but my last ride on Monday was definitely the most painful coaster ride I've ever had..it's really getting to the point where they need to address the issue.

 

I was thinking about why this might be happening, because I sure never had this happen on the old Arrow trains (they had other issues), and I didn't experience it back in October either. Considering it's the rotation that's the issue, it has to be something with either the train coming through that section too fast making the seat rotate too quickly or possibly there's an issue with the rack gear (pardon me if I got the term wrong, I cant remember the proper name for it) that is sticking and isn't rotating smoothly.

 

Robb, since you're the only person I know who's ridden X2 and Dinoconda (and I think Eejanaika?) how do the other two compare pain-wise?

 

I think the next time I trek down to SFMM I'm going to bring some soccer shin guards and wear them backwards.

[Tmcdllr]

^

 

Watch this video and listen to Robb's comments....

 

*there is some language but it is completely relevant*

 

 

That seemed pretty clear to me how this ride is.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Tmcdllr

[TyRush]

So guys is YOLO actually tied in with the FT drink? Haven't heard any news since Robb pointed out the logos similarity.

To me it looks very similar but you would think by now MM would have announced a tie-in, but then again they probably even forgot

[singemfrc]

^^ Oh yeah, I forgot about that I think my Monday ride on X2 was more painful than that..I was sure uttering a similar amount of curse words. I would hope that Dinoconda, being newer, would be better.

[robbalvey]

Robb, since you're the only person I know who's ridden X2 and Dinoconda (and I think Eejanaika?) how do the other two compare pain-wise?

I've been on Eejanika two different times. Once in the video posted above, and it was easily one of my worst coaster rides I've ever taken. The second time it was "barely tolerable" and I was at least on an inside seat for that ride.

 

Dinoconda ran very much like when X2 first opened, which was GREAT, but keep in mind we were on that coaster within 6 months of it opening. So ask me again after we've been on it in 2016!

 

Here's the video we took on Dinoconda:

Edited May 22, 2013 by robbalvey

[Gnome]

I've never had a problem with the roughness of X2. If I was trying to marathon the coaster, I could see issues, but as it is the line is always so long that I'm lucky to get 1 ride in. And for 1 ride, I can tolerate the more extreme nature of the attraction.

[Jew]

I've never had a good ride on X or X2. Always been rough, but now just seems brutal.

[coasterfreak101]

I also never have a problem with unbearable roughness on X2, and I've always ridden in outside seats. I prefer the front (the one that gets the clear view on the drop), but not because it's any smoother, just for that first flip to face downwards. I've ridden in other seats though, and the only part that comes close to hurting or being a little obnoxious is the top of the last raven turn.

 

Even then, I just look at the mild concussion as part of the overall confusing experience!

[coasternut]

I've never had a good ride on X or X2. Always been rough, but now just seems brutal.

 

Amen! I just don't ride it. It does serve a purpose for me - it takes people out of the lines for the rides I like at MM.

[TopThrill182]

I'd argue the issue is most visible when the train first leaves the station. Does anyone else notice how the cars roll forward and backward in quick succession on the turn to the lift? Considering the guide rail that controls the seats' rotation is in the same position throughout this turn, it doesn't seem like there should be any substantial shimmying during this part of the ride. Rather, it seems like the cars have a tolerance for rotational movement independent of the designated rail.

 

When the forces of the ensuing ride come into play, it seems like the cars' free movement is kicked into overdrive, as evidenced in the final raven turn when the seats jerk forward and backward so quickly and forcefully that your head and legs bang painfully against the seat.

 

Is there no way to "tighten" the train mechanisms in such a way that the seats can't rotate so freely?

 

Though I got five rides in on Monday, enjoying them all thoroughly (I still think the unique experience makes up for the uncomfortableness), I agree that it won't be long before the ride's roughness takes a hit on it's popularity with the GP. I heard several people commenting on the painful experience upon returning to the station.

Edited May 23, 2013 by TopThrill182

[singemfrc]

^ I don't think that could cause the super violent movement though, its not a shaking or a general discomfort throughout the ride. Also I could be wrong but I don't think it's accurate that there's no variance in the rails there..I dont think the small amount of variance needed would be too obvious to the naked eye, and as far back as I can remember the cars have always done that, so it wouldn't be a loosening over time kind of thing.

[goatdan]

^ ^

 

I haven't been on X or any of it's clones, but I think that the free rotation issue that you're mentioning is the exact issue. Watching the Dinoconda video, a full 360 degree rotation appears to be about three feet on the guide rail thing. Using simple math, that makes each inch 10 degrees of rotation, and since that rotation is at the center of your body with your head and legs the furthest away from it, even minor variances will cause pretty extreme issues.

 

On top of that, Arrow was never real known for making their trains tight to the track the way B&M and Intamin do. Look at the upstop wheels on the next arrow you go on, and in general they are not touching the track by a quarter inch or so. If there is even a quarter inch of play in that section, any time there is a change in the way the ride's forces make it want to go versus how it is going, you'll get a violent reaction.

 

My relatively uninformed guess is that you've got a situation where the wheels aren't tight, that nasty raven turn has some variances with the steel there, and the forces change at the same time, adding up to a very painful experience.

 

I do think this is something relatively hard to fix, however, as if it was easy based on the popularity that the ride amazingly continues to get, they should be popping up in lots more parks by now.

 

Having said all that, I find rides like this to be absolutely fascinating, and I generally want to ride them more than the nice, smooth coasters that most people love. X2 is at the top of my list of rides I want to get on, even though I'm certain I'll hate it.

[singemfrc]

^ It doesnt change the point of your post, but X2's trains were built by S&S Power. You'll hate the pain, but hopefully you'll still love the rest of the ride. For me that first drop is so great it gets me on the ride in spite of the pain, I just can't ride it repeatedly.

Edited May 23, 2013 by singemfrc

[GayCoasterGuy]

The Arrow rides are all welded together, mostly. If the ride had hinges and ball/socket joints, that would absorb some of the shock. But either way, it's a complex mechanism and those seats are gonna vibrate any which way you do it. The track and trains would have to be much larger and bulkier to really stifle that motion.

 

B&M has their 4d-inspired model - the wing coaster - and even those solid B&M machines have vibration.

[goatdan]

^ It doesnt change the point of your post, but X2's trains were built by S&S Power. You'll hate the pain, but hopefully you'll still love the rest of the ride. For me that first drop is so great it gets me on the ride in spite of the pain, I just can't ride it repeatedly.

 

Yeah, I know. But S&S bought Arrow or reverse merged with them or whatever it was, so it's sort of the same difference to me... and when you get new rolling stock, you can't work around what was done with the trains.

 

I don't know when / if I'll ever get on it. I was last at Magic Mountain when the train change-over was going on... darn it.

[singemfrc]

What's interesting to me is, looking at Robb's Dinoconda video, the trains are still rocking. Those trains are practically identical to the trains on X2 (they were built about 3 years apart) and that was filmed when Dinoconda was 6 months old so I dont think it's caused by wear and tear.

 

Eejanaika however, doesn't rock. Eejanaika's trains were built by S&S, but they are much closer to the original Arrow trains. The seats rotate slowly about 90 degrees and then back. (I included a different vid of Eejanaika only because Robb's picks up with the cars already on the lift)

 

 

 

On the original X, the seats did not move coming out of the station around the corner, they rocked back as soon as you hit the lift..this basically confirms there's no change in the rail (Since different cars are behaving differently on the same track). For whatever reason, I think the rocking on the newer S&S trains is intentional and caused by the trains not the track. I wish I could ask someone at S&S, because although it doesnt affect me in any way, I'm extremely fascinated

[goatdan]

On the original X, the seats did not move coming out of the station around the corner, they rocked back as soon as you hit the lift..this basically confirms there's no change in the rail (Since different cars are behaving differently on the same track).

 

That is *fascinating* and blows my theory out of the water. If it was intentional, that is an extremely weird decision, as any movement / vibration causes wear and discomfort...

 

Having said that, in that original X video you can see the Arrow design as they rotate back not smoothly, but by a bunch at a time

[singemfrc]

^ My completely uneducated guess is maybe it's something like how race car drivers rapidly steer left and right to heat up the tires..perhaps the cars rock back and forth to make sure they move easier somehow? It sure seems to be intentional since the two newer of the four sets of trains have the behavior and the two older ones don't/didn't.

[goatdan]

^

 

Yeah... but as you said, if the rail hasn't changed, then how could they control the rocking like that? It would have to be an intentional design, and if you did it there, it would work for everywhere in the entire ride the same.

 

The other thing that it could be is that maybe the wheels were "tightened up" and whereas before the ride didn't wiggle because the "rotation wheels" (or whatever they are called) weren't making enough contact, and now that they are they make the ride wiggle, in which case it's essentially the ride telling you "this is how much slop is in our guide rail, get ready!"

 

But that doesn't make sense either, because then you should see it wiggle throughout the entire lift...

 

Hmmm... I don't know. I'm into meaningless speculation territory now, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Stuff like this is what really fascinates me about rides.

[TopThrill182]

I'm no engineer, so I apologize for using potentially inaccurate terminology, but could this free rotation issue be compared to how buildings are designed to sway in wind rather than remain rigid?

 

Regardless, it seems like the general consensus is that the ride has gotten rougher in the years since its conversion. Given that it seems unlikely the actual guide rails have deformed over time, I'd argue the trains themselves have worn down in some way.

 

Would scrapping the audio and shaving a few additional pounds help at all? I realize this is a small part of the train's wait, but given the dismantling of Bizarro's audio at SFGAd, I don't think it too far fetched to think that X2's could be on the way out as well.

[Tmcdllr]

Is it possible the rail tolerance wasn't as close as it should have been to begin with?

[TopThrill182]

What do you mean by "rail tolerance?" Are you thinking the rails could be crooked?

[MrSum1_55]

If you watch the Dinoconda pov, the rocking in very noticeable, and clearly intentional. So, it might be possible that this is also intentional for X2, but I have never been quite sure of that.

[singemfrc]

if the rail hasn't changed, then how could they control the rocking like that? It would have to be an intentional design, and if you did it there, it would work for everywhere in the entire ride the same.

It's not impossible that there's a mechanism in the train or car that causes it at that point, in fact I'd say it has to be, only because both X2 and Dinoconda do the exact same thing at the exact same place while Eejanaika having different cars does not do it. (Its also worth noting that Eejanaika's station is unique - the floor falls away like an invert/floorless instead of having the seats rotate back upon dispatch)

 

Given that it seems unlikely the actual guide rails have deformed over time, I'd argue the trains themselves have worn down in some way.

Except Dinoconda does the same thing and it's brand new, so it's definitely intentional. What we don't know is how and why.

[goatdan]

I'm no engineer, so I apologize for using potentially inaccurate terminology, but could this free rotation issue be compared to how buildings are designed to sway in wind rather than remain rigid?

 

It wouldn't work the same, because the swaying motion would be an up / down motion on the train, not the twisting motion back and forth. That twist itself doesn't make the forces that are acting on the train any less rigid, as the forces on the train are still pushing up and down on the same bars where the train connects.

 

I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain.

 

Is it possible the rail tolerance wasn't as close as it should have been to begin with?

 

What this post is referring to with rail tolerance is the difference between where the rail *should* be, and where the rail *actually* is. The short version of this is that back when they started making steel coasters, it was both extremely difficult to perfectly weld a track together at the exact right sizes, and so designers expected some "play" in the track where the rails might get further apart, closer together, larger, smaller, or whatever. A certain tolerance of this was expected from the rides.

 

Today, with vastly improved manufacturing processes and an understanding of exactly how that tolerance affect the overall ride performance, manufacturers have been working to eliminate all of the tolerance and have it much lower.

 

I think I have it in storage still, but I had some early Arrow promotional materials where they claimed that they were able to reduce their rail tolerance to something like an inch, which meant that there could be at any moment an extra inch of side-to-side or up-and-down movement. B&M came on the scene boasting a significantly improved tolerance that contributed to their smoother rides, as did the design of their carriages.

 

The point of all of this simply being - if the 4th Dimension coasters were designed with too much tolerance (or "slop") on that third rail, then that would definitely be a contributing factor to the roughness of the ride experience... however, looking at how the ride performed with the original trains versus the new ones with just the run out to the lift exhibiting that with shake thing on the new trains and the lift being the same, it really makes one wonder what is causing it.

 

To see how different it can be, next time you are riding an Arrow, look at the wheel that runs alongside the bottom of the track, and you'll see that rarely do these touch the rail, oftentimes they won't even turn with the ride because the pressure is on the top wheels. It's often the most pronounced when an Arrow train starts it's ascent up the lift, and the chain will lift the ride off the track so you'll get a lifting up and setting down of the train where you can feel it bumping the uplift wheels and then returning back on. The older the ride, the more pronounced it tends to be, and the best example that I can think of is probably the Demon at Great America, or the Corkscrew at Michigan's Adventure.

 

Theoretically, that tolerance wasn't a huge issue because the wheels where more than wide enough to handle it, and the pressure of the ride meant that the running wheels were where the ride spent almost all of it's time, and the changes in which wheels would be touching wouldn't be too bad... but with a ride system like the 4th Dimension Coaster, where a 1 inch tolerance is a 10 degree difference, it would make a huge difference...

 

Although again, that doesn't appear to be the issue here based on that original ride footage. Weird stuff.